fiduciary

Author Topic: Darth Bane Canon?  (Read 4902 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Darth Wraith

  • Master Force User
  • *****
  • Posts: 696
  • Everything Burns
    • Darth Wraith at Star Wars Space.net
Darth Bane Canon?
« on: May 05, 2014, 08:17:19 PM »
Greetings saberland, been a while...

I've got something that's been eating me since I herd the announcement that the Clone Wars tv series is now technically canon.

Now I know a lot of people had a lot of issues with the series, however there is one thing that I'm very curious about now. 

We got the announcement that the EU as a whole has been essentially wiped off the board, except for as potential material for new adaptations in the future.  However, Darth Bane did make a very small appearance in the clone wars during the last season added on Netflix. 

This leads me to ask the logical question, does that make Darth Bane canon now.  Yoda acknowledged his name, and the apparition of Bane acknowledged the basic story that we all know of how the rule of two was created, and the Sith before anhialated. Additionally, at the end of season 5 when Sidious fought and defeated Maul, he was quoted as saying "remember... there can only be two... and you are you are no longer my apprentice... you have been replaced".

My final evidence is shown at the end of TPM during Qui Gon's funeral.  Yoda and Mace Windu engage in a discussion where it is stated that "always two there are... no more, no less... a master and an apprentice".

These all clearly point to the acknowledgement of the rule of two being recognized as canon.  It also seems, they are acknowledging its creator as canon as well. 

Maybe I'm just grasping on to what shreds of my beloved Old Republic story line as I can (Revan, Bane, Mandalorain Wars, etc.), as they're voices could be heard crying out in terror in one horrible moment then becoming suddenly silent as Disney removed them from the Universe of Star Wars.  Bane is an Amazing character, and if we could still keep his story intact that would make me very very happy.

Thoughts?  Think they'll leave his story intact (Zahnna, Cognus, etc.)?  I was curious what you would all have to say regarding this topic.

« Last Edit: May 05, 2014, 08:19:26 PM by Darth Wraith »


I Am the Lord of Shadow, Even as I am Enveloped by Darkness, So to Shall I be Embraced by the Light.

Offline Professor Huyang

  • Formerly known as TyFighter
  • Master Force User
  • *****
  • Posts: 1030
  • The Saber Baron
Re: Darth Bane Canon?
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2014, 08:31:11 PM »
Bane was created in the EU to explain where the rule of two came from. The rule originated in Phantom Menace, and Bane debuted soon after.

The Bane of the Clone Wars, however, is not based upon the EU. The orbalisk armor and curved hilt saber were replaced by a fire- glaive and shredder mask.

Considering how distinct  his appearance from the literature, all bets are off for the background. Disney has their own stories to tell, and they paid a lot of money for the opportunity to tell them.

The EU is dead. Long live the EU.
"Many years I have been on this ship teaching many a Jedi before you, and I will continue teaching many a Jedi after you. Call me what you want, but inside my memory banks I contain a record of every lightsaber ever made, and the Jedi who fashioned it."
―Huyang


Offline Greebles

  • Formerly known as Codeweasel
  • Master Force User
  • *****
  • Posts: 762
  • “You must unlearn what you have learned.”
Re: Darth Bane Canon?
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2014, 06:07:21 AM »
IMHO the EU stories can still exist in "cannon" as long as it is not directly contradicted by the new stuff. The Darth Bane stories took place so long ago that it might just be left alone. I can't think of anything in those stories that would be impacted by the direction of the stuff.

If Disney was smart they would make an Old Republic Series of movies and have Karpyshyn's Bane Story told in film.
It right there ripe and ready for the picking.

-Denzil

Offline LUMINARA UNDULI

  • Master of the purple blade
  • Administrator
  • Master Force User
  • *
  • Posts: 10714
  • Formerly Known As Allaerra
    • Vader's Vault
Re: Darth Bane Canon?
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2014, 06:19:06 AM »
Currently, the only things that are Canon are the OT, PT, Clone Wars and the Rebels series, as well as the new films.  However, they did leave it open to redo some familiar stories as they said that the EU is there for authors to draw inspiration from.  It is possible that Bane or Revan or any of our most loved EU characters could be brought forward, but thus far none are confirmed.  This is a wait and see situation.



Website: Vader's vault
Facebook: VVFB

Offline Onli-Won Kanomi

  • Master Force User
  • *****
  • Posts: 4642
  • Jedi Knight Of Faith
Re: Darth Bane Canon?
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2014, 07:03:54 AM »
But 'A' Bane IS canon due to that Clone Wars episode - he just doesnt bear much if any resemblance whatsoever to Karpashyn's description of THE Bane we all know from the de-canonized books ad comics.

This gives us a hint of what Darth Mouse [Disney] is going to be up to with SW franchise going forward - they'll bring back the NAMES of things from the EU whenever they want and think that will *PT Barnum voice* bamboozle the suckers [us EU fans] but they won't be what we fans remember them as...just lame 'new versions'...I for one dread what they'll do to 'reimagine' [read dumb down for kiddies and subliterates who wouldn't know the first fully realized characterization of an Neitzschean ubermensch in literary history from a Kierkegaardian knight of faith] Revan...

-sigh-
To DREAM the IMPOSSIBLE DREAM. To FIGHT the unbeatable foe. To BEAR with unbearable sorrow. To RUN where the brave dare not go. To RIGHT the unrightable wrong. To LOVE, PURE AND CHASTE, FROM AFAR [-sigh-]. To TRY, when your arms are too weary; to REACH the unreachable Star!... This is my Quest; To follow that Star, no matter how hopeless, no matter how far...

Offline bekstorm

  • Padawan Learner
  • **
  • Posts: 92
Re: Darth Bane Canon?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2014, 08:03:33 AM »
But 'A' Bane IS canon due to that Clone Wars episode - he just doesnt bear much if any resemblance whatsoever to Karpashyn's description of THE Bane we all know from the de-canonized books ad comics.

This gives us a hint of what Darth Mouse [Disney] is going to be up to with SW franchise going forward - they'll bring back the NAMES of things from the EU whenever they want and think that will *PT Barnum voice* bamboozle the suckers [us EU fans] but they won't be what we fans remember them as...just lame 'new versions'...I for one dread what they'll do to 'reimagine' [read dumb down for kiddies and subliterates who wouldn't know the first fully realized characterization of an Neitzschean ubermensch in literary history from a Kierkegaardian knight of faith] Revan...

-sigh-

That is a great summary of what seems to be the track for future use of EU materials. It's kind of odd to think that even Revan isn't currently canon. That is unless they count deleted scenes in TCW.
The Force doesn't want me dead. It doesn't want me happy, but it doesn't want me dead.

Offline WEDGE ANTILLES

  • formerly known as Cobalt60
  • FX-SABERS VIP II
  • Master Force User
  • *
  • Posts: 2846
  • May the LAG be with you
Re: Darth Bane Canon?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2014, 11:15:50 AM »
Quote

We got the announcement that the EU as a whole has been essentially wiped off the board,

Quote
Disney removed them from the Universe of Star Wars.

Quote
de-canonized books ad comics.

guys.     the EU was NEVER canon to begin with.   

it was C-canon.   
(as opposed to G-canon.  and T-canon.  and S-canon.  and N-canon. and X-Y-Z-canon)  ::)
it was enough to make your head spin.

the EU had been presenting "non-canon" stories for over 30 years, starting with "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" in 1978. 

 

--> all Disney did, was announce a NEW system, where ALL star wars media WOULD be canon in the future.   

read: they ended the practice, of telling "non-canon" stories.   so now, ALL new star wars stories are canon.
((even the 'EU' stories from comic books and novels -- this had never happened before -- these media sources were NEVER considered canon.. until now!))  8)

somehow this announcement was misinterpreted.  as if the entire EU was suddenly made "non-canon" by the disney announcement.
((but .. we already knew .. those stories were NEVER canon to begin with)).   :-\
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 11:21:30 AM by WEDGE ANTILLES »
"The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story.
Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned, and Luke doesn't get married..."
- George Lucas

Offline Nicholas.slaydon

  • Experienced Force User
  • ****
  • Posts: 499
  • “Ours Is The Fury"
Re: Darth Bane Canon?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2014, 11:17:41 AM »
Yes Bane is canon, just not the Bane in the stories. The Bane in the TV series did create the Rule Of Two (Though there might not be a name for the "1 Master and 1 Apprentice" rule because i dont think that anyone said "rule of two"). So yes Bane is canon just not the Bane that the books describe.

Offline Nicholas.slaydon

  • Experienced Force User
  • ****
  • Posts: 499
  • “Ours Is The Fury"
Re: Darth Bane Canon?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2014, 11:19:11 AM »
Quote

We got the announcement that the EU as a whole has been essentially wiped off the board,

Quote
Disney removed them from the Universe of Star Wars.

Quote
de-canonized books ad comics.

guys.     the EU was NEVER canon to begin with.   

it was C-canon.   
(as opposed to G-canon.  and T-canon.  and S-canon.  and N-canon. and X-Y-Z-canon)  ::)
it was enough to make your head spin.

the EU had been presenting "non-canon" stories for over 30 years, starting with "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" in 1978. 


--> all Disney did, was announce a NEW system, where ALL star wars media WOULD be canon in the future.   

read: they ended the practice, of telling "non-canon" stories. 

somehow this announcement was mis-interpreted.  as if the entire EU was suddenly made "non-canon" by the disney announcement.

(but .. we already knew ..  it was NEVER canon to begin with).   :-\

FINALLY! someone who gets it. i have been trying ever since Disney said that to get people to understand it was NEVER canon.

Offline Onli-Won Kanomi

  • Master Force User
  • *****
  • Posts: 4642
  • Jedi Knight Of Faith
Re: Darth Bane Canon?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2014, 01:45:17 PM »
"We already knew" no such thing.

As Wedge himself acknowledges the EU was C-canon [Continuity-canon] NOT N-canon which was by definition the category for what was specifically NON-canon - that's what the "N-" stood for: "Non-".

*in certain Vulcan voice* ;)

As a matter of basic LOGIC one may apply the syllogism that IF there is [or in this case was] a category of things [in this case N-canon] that is defined as "non-" within a related class of things [in this case SW canon heirarchy] THEN all other relative categories [in this case C-canon] must be extant within and therefore cannot LOGICALLY be excluded from the related class [in this case SW canon] as "non-" by virtue of which category they have been SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED from.

Ergo C-canon [the EU] cannot be said to have ALWAYS been "non-canon" BECAUSE of the THEN existence of N-canon for those things which were then NON-canon.

It may be non-canon NOW because of JJ's overblown EGO and GEORGE HATES US and Disney has ALLOWED that CHANGE to SW canon but it is simply not correct to say it was ALWAYS non-canon.
To DREAM the IMPOSSIBLE DREAM. To FIGHT the unbeatable foe. To BEAR with unbearable sorrow. To RUN where the brave dare not go. To RIGHT the unrightable wrong. To LOVE, PURE AND CHASTE, FROM AFAR [-sigh-]. To TRY, when your arms are too weary; to REACH the unreachable Star!... This is my Quest; To follow that Star, no matter how hopeless, no matter how far...

Offline Master Valon

  • Master Force User
  • *****
  • Posts: 765
  • "Love can ignite the stars."- Matthew Stover
Re: Darth Bane Canon?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2014, 02:37:52 PM »
I have to side with Onli-Won here. I don't get the claim that the EU was never canon. Wedge, you said it yourself, it was designated officially "C-Canon", and as Onli-Wan pointed out, there was another classification "N-Canon" that meant something was non-canon. The EU, in the form of books/video games/etc., was just lower form of canon that could be trumped by anything higher than it if/when a contradiction took place.

I do obviously agree, though, that the new system is just a restructuring, and not a clean wipe or anything. It seems that anything not blatantly contradicted in the new system of canon (OT/PT/TCW/New Trilogy) is still "canon", however ambiguously.
Though this is the end of the age of heroes, it has saved its best for last.

Offline bekstorm

  • Padawan Learner
  • **
  • Posts: 92
Re: Darth Bane Canon?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2014, 02:48:15 PM »
I am rusty on the old canon structure, but I thought C-Canon was considered canon under the old rules unless it came into contradiction with G and S levels. Once it came into contradiction it then became N level. I will agree that this seems more like a restructuring that will probably see the re-addition of some materials.
The Force doesn't want me dead. It doesn't want me happy, but it doesn't want me dead.

Offline Nicholas.slaydon

  • Experienced Force User
  • ****
  • Posts: 499
  • “Ours Is The Fury"
Re: Darth Bane Canon?
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2014, 02:59:58 PM »
George has ALWAYS said that the ONLY thing that was canon is his movies and the clone wars. He said the the EU was more of a "what if" universe.

Offline Master Valon

  • Master Force User
  • *****
  • Posts: 765
  • "Love can ignite the stars."- Matthew Stover
Re: Darth Bane Canon?
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2014, 05:55:03 PM »
But once George wasn't the sole contributor to the SW universe, it all became very complicated. Hence why there were a bunch of people at Lucasfilm who were gatekeepers of the EU and canon (like Leland Chee, etc.). And according to them (whose sole job it was to dictate canon and establish continuity), books/videogames/comics etc. were C-Canon, and as bekstorm said, were canon as long as they weren't directly contradicted by higher canon. It just gets down to if you, on a personal level, are going to "listen" to the continuity staff at Lucasfilm (who are/were paid by Lucas to establish continuity, mind you), or if you are jus going to listen to George and believe that nothing in the EU was canon. But at that point it all gets very silly, because of 2 reasons. 1.) it's all a fictional universe, and 2.) the books/comics/video games EXIST! So by saying, "oh, all that stuff in that one book you read didn't REALLY happen...", it doesn't really carry too much weight. You read the story, and it was entertaining (or not), and that's all that really matters.

But the fact of the matter is, despite anyone's personal convictions over what "really" happened in the SW universe, according to the official channels at the time, the books DID "happen" and were deemed canon, unless otherwise contradicted by higher sources of canon. But like I said, personally, anyone can choose to invest in the EU (or heck, the movies) as much or little as they want. You see that with the OT purists all the time. And that's all cool, and all. To them, 1-3 "never happened", even though I think all of us here agree that, according to the official canon, they did.
Though this is the end of the age of heroes, it has saved its best for last.

Offline XsaberX

  • Master Force User
  • *****
  • Posts: 644
Re: Darth Bane Canon?
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2014, 10:50:38 PM »
Bane was created by Lucas, so he is definitely canon. His first appearance was in the novelization of The Phantom Menace. I don't remember what is said exactly, as I read it over a decade ago, and it was a short passage, but it did reference the rule of two and that he founded it.


EDIT

Found a quote from the book:

“Darth Maul shifted impatiently. The younger Sith had not yet learned his Master’s patience; that would come with time and training. It was patience that had saved the Sith order in the end. It was patience that would give them victory now over the Jedi.
The Sith who had survived when all his fellows had died had understood that. He had adopted patience as a virtue when the others had forsaken it. He had adopted cunning, stealth, and subterfuge as the foundation of his way — old Jedi virtues the others had disdained. He stood aside while the Sith tore at each other like kriks and were destroyed. When the carnage was complete, he went into hiding, biding his time, waiting for his chance.
When it was believed all of the Sith were destroyed, he emerged from his concealment. At first he worked alone, but he was growing old and he was the last of his kind. Eventually, he went out in search of an apprentice. Finding one, he trained him to be a Master in his turn, then to find his own apprentice, and so to carry on their work. But there would only be two at any one time. There would be no repetition of the mistakes of the old order, no struggle between Siths warring for power within the cult. Their common enemy was the Jedi, not each other. It was for their war with the Jedi they must save themselves.
The Sith who reinvented the order called himself Darth Bane. 
A thousand years had passed since the Sith were believed destroyed, and the time they had waited for had come at last” (136).
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 06:07:07 AM by XsaberX »