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Author Topic: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"  (Read 15441 times)

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Offline Arkos

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A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"
« on: April 01, 2010, 10:13:43 AM »
First all my apologies if, despite my search I missed an analogue topic, moderator will fix it :)
all my apologies again if this topic dont fit in the proper section, I hope "iamdoitrite"  ::)


hello there!
As a French I eared a bit of one of our martial art, "la canne de combat", French stick fighting, created a loooong time ago

for the history you can look here

http://www.batoncanne.com/-English-.html

To me it look very close to what a real fight with ligthsaber could look like, I wish that you, readers and trained saber users could say about it
for a better view of this, I collected some video

first,  a competition

then a funny video where someone add some FX
&NR=1

then, some funny tricks by a club, "les apaches" (argot word in 1930 for bad guys lol)

same group



at last some draws

(picture from this website http://www.savate-canne.com/historique.html )

well lightsaber is.. French hahaha
as a gentlemen sport, it is the link between steampunk style and star wars?

no, seriously... what do you think about it?

« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 11:23:30 AM by Arkos »

Offline cannibal869

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2010, 10:56:00 AM »
As a quasi-sport, fine.  Probably a good way to burn off excess fat and energy.

To me, it just looks like a bunch of people wailing on each other with sticks.
While there might be some sort of technique to it, I will tell you that just looking at the video,
I personally think there is a lot of wasted movement - i.e. twirling, jumping, spinning that
looks cool, but in real combat will leave you exposed.

You don't see fencers or kendo practitioners doing those sorts of arm waving movements, right?
There's a reason for that.


Offline Arkos

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2010, 11:06:45 AM »
You don't see fencers or kendo practitioners doing those sorts of arm waving movements, right?
There's a reason for that.

yes I 100% agree with you, but are'nt the movie's fight this way?
Remember this sport is practiced with stick that was walking ones, no as efficient as a cutting saber or a single real sword would do.
In real life, this sport would be used with "savate" another old french martial art ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savate )

at last lightsaber is a combined weapon style (including tennis as said Nick Gillard) used by people that can "feel", foresee the immediate future, not ordinary people (to me that just mean that only learned choreography could make it right) , so I assume we could use some part of this martial art, not the whole thing like any martial arts... but to me a lot of movement match the movies styles  :o

(edited, sorry for the poor english!)
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 11:12:45 AM by Arkos »

Offline Caine

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2010, 11:11:20 AM »
Here are some good reference links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stick_fighting (mentions La Canne)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartitsu (where La Canne is based from)

It is important to note that many stick based arts are practiced on a sports-like aspect, very similar to other styles of martial arts (ex. sport taekwondo and traditional tae kwon do have much different emphasis). This explains the jumps. twirls,. flashiness (to thrill the crowd)

For REAL combat....NO WAY. I would never react to a real attack the same way I would spar someone. As long as you are able to understand the difference between the two, the better off you will be.  ;)

Also keep in mind that in real combat, you aren't going to always look as good with your finesse as if you would in a controlled environment. Hence the wild swings, etc. I have pretty decent technique with my Eskrima training, but when I did some full contact stickfighting, well...the technique was there yes, but not the finesse....and that is OK.

Thanks for sharing the links.

Offline Arkos

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2010, 11:22:27 AM »
For REAL combat....NO WAY. I would never react to a real attack the same way I would spar someone. As long as you are able to understand the difference between the two, the better off you will be.  ;)

Ho my! I tried it some years ago with a friend doing viet vo dao as a black belt and... well I learned extremely fast as polycarbonate blade was'nt used yet, but aluminum ones (10 years ago)  ;D

I took the reality on the hard side HAHAHA. I would prefer discovering it with "chambara" foam sabers LOL
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_Chanbara )
Thanks for you answers everyones!! 

Caine, your links are very instructive!!!

ps: I know wikipedia is not very trustable lol
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 11:26:16 AM by Arkos »

Offline ASAJJ VENTRESS

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2010, 12:33:58 PM »
You know, I'm reminded of a scene in the movie Foot Fist Way, where a 4th degree black belt and a 5th degree blatck belt in Tae Kwon Do are discussing Kendo:  "What's up with that Kendo (poodoo) just a bunch of stick waving is what that is.  Totally useless."

What I would love to see on the boards here is more respect for other styles than the 'popular' styles that everyone is familiar with. Eache style has its own merits and drawbacks, and unless you've actually STUDIED the style, you really can't say how effective or realistic it is.

honestly, does it matter what is used as long as it's used efficiently?  are you really going to tell me that if someone came at you with a cane you'd stand there and laugh?

Cane-based fighting, sword-based fighting, knife-based fighting....

I'd be wary of scoffing at martial art styles and saying they're good for 'losing weight' before finding out the proficiency of the person you're talking to. 

Something else I'm finding troubling is the way that 'fighting' and 'sparring' are used interchangeably.  For instance, when you spar with someone, you're not doing your best to make sure the person doesn't get up off the floor.  If that's not your goal, then it's not fighting.


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Offline cannibal869

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2010, 12:46:55 PM »
You know, I'm reminded of a scene in the movie Foot Fist Way, where a 4th degree black belt and a 5th degree blatck belt in Tae Kwon Do are discussing Kendo:  "What's up with that Kendo (poodoo) just a bunch of stick waving is what that is.  Totally useless."

What I would love to see on the boards here is more respect for other styles than the 'popular' styles that everyone is familiar with. Eache style has its own merits and drawbacks, and unless you've actually STUDIED the style, you really can't say how effective or realistic it is.

honestly, does it matter what is used as long as it's used efficiently?  are you really going to tell me that if someone came at you with a cane you'd stand there and laugh?

Cane-based fighting, sword-based fighting, knife-based fighting....

I'd be wary of scoffing at martial art styles and saying they're good for 'losing weight' before finding out the proficiency of the person you're talking to. 

Something else I'm finding troubling is the way that 'fighting' and 'sparring' are used interchangeably.  For instance, when you spar with someone, you're not doing your best to make sure the person doesn't get up off the floor.  If that's not your goal, then it's not fighting.

What makes you think I *haven't* formally studied and competed in a weapon based martial art for years??

LOL...

I agree that the forms and movements are similar to those seen in the movies.
And I also agree that in true life or death combat, flailing arms are likely going to happen regardless of how much training you have.
I have plenty of respect for other styles of fighting, all I'm pointing out is that there seems to be a large amount of unnecessary "showing off" in this particular sport.  Now if they award points based on this type of move - i.e. you got hit with a more difficult / flashy move, therefore you get two points instead of one, then I can see why people would do it.  But if the object is to hit your opponent and avoid getting hit...there are more...uh economical ways of doing it.

Now if someone were to come at me with one of those things like in the video, all I can say is that I would view each of those open body positions as a potential kill opportunity and would take full advantage of it.

{edit} One last note - I think I'm guilty of what Caine was talking about - as a sport, it's perfectly fine and actually looks kinda like fun.  The speed of the hits is fairly impressive.  Yes, it would have real life correlation with lightsaber dueling.   As a form of fighting, I think it's excessively elaborate.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 02:01:08 PM by cannibal869 »

Offline Firith Tar

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2010, 12:49:17 PM »
I for one have seen this Art in practice and I can assure you that it is an effective martial art... It like some many others have been turned into sport... this reminds me of how others view Capoeira... that is also a very effective martial art.
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Offline Caine

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2010, 12:54:00 PM »
Folks, it's not the art....it's the PERSON practicing it.   ;)

Offline Novastar

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2010, 03:27:39 PM »
Direct attacks -- are seen in 100% of martial arts... sport or "real"
Feint attacks -- are seen in 100% of martial arts... boxing, fencing, 2-handed swordplay, and stickfighting alike
Beat attacks -- are seen in (almost?) 100% of martial arts... ( "      "          "        " -- quoting both above)
Invitations -- are seen in 100% of martial arts... ( "      "          "        " -- quoting both above)
Measure/Distance -- is key and of PARAMOUNT importance in 100% of all martial arts (anyone who says differently is just simply WRONG, and that is something that--I'm sorry--it's not up for argument)

Quickly executed "flourishes" that lead into a final attack... are seen ALL THE TIME in fencing.  Note that I said "quickly"... so that wouldn't include spinning your saber for 3 seconds and attempting to hit... it'd be more like 0.75 seconds to 1.5 seconds... something like that.

If you *DO* spin/twirl/flourish your weapon... by DEFAULT, you are no longer making a direct attack.  You're probably attempting to deceive/confuse your opponent into defending:

A) at the wrong time
B) in the wrong place
C) with the wrong blade/weapon relationship
D) all or mixture of the above

Otherwise... maybe you're offering a brief "invitation".  I do that all the time.  :)  I love invitations, and I love feinted attacks.  Heck... I love *MANY* different attacks.

Ultimately, I always find these stupid posts about "what works and what doesn't" pointless and useless... but not to forsake healthy discussion--oh no.  None of the such.  It's only because people will "dumb down" or disparage things that they do not understand, do not practice in REAL LIFE... or simply would prefer to put their own martial art of choice up on a pedestal.  A false one at that.

All martial art FOUNDATIONALLY... are the same.

If you spar with someone in "real time" (non-choreographed actions)... you will automatically begin to learn the foundations of ALL martial arts.

Now whether you realize that or accept it... well... that's up to you.
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Offline Mikkyo of the Sith

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2010, 07:38:12 PM »
Folks, it's not the art....it's the PERSON practicing it.   ;)
Word.  8)
  Thanks for the cool vids Arkos. But if you, me, we and or us do barrow from this activity, might I highly recomend thin walled blades.  ;) I would imagine quite a few fingers could be spared. ...Just my 2cents.

Offline Jedi Knight Logan

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2010, 11:47:28 PM »
My Uncle used to say "it's easy to criticize someone else  when you are standing around doing nothing."

To put it another way... Back in the day when people were killing and maiming each other with these arts, I don't think they were sitting around the campfire getting into a "My style is (insert adjective here) than yours... debate.

Why?

Because they were busy killing and maiming each other.

Keep in mind that when a Samurai seeking to make a name for himself requested a "Comparison of Techniques". He was basically saying ..."let's go off into the forest and see who comes back."

The whole "If they did that I'd just do (blank) argument is just well ...... boring. For a couple of reasons:

1. How many people are using these arts in life and death struggles.... *be honest now*. I've been in my share of fights, but working in the Security Industry for over 16 years found me resolving conflict with my wits far more often than with my fists.

2. It's easy to say what you would do tucked safely behind a keyboard, but fact is ... You don't know what will happen until it happens.... I can watch a MMA fight and pick it apart all day long. Being in there for the fun adds quite a different POV.

3. Say you're feeling all Conan (the Barbarian, not O'Brien) and you wanna go challenge some other stylist to exert your dominance in some Nat Geo primate mating ritual.... and let's also say you KICK THE GUYS BUTT! HOORAY!... ....

Oh wait.... you beat the man.... not the art.

These reasons alone make judging another martial art based on your style's methodology ridiculous. Every art has a reason for what they do and why they do it that way. If you do not agree with it... then do not practice that art.


I started training martial arts at age 7... and have been ever since. This June will put that at 30 years. ::) And I think they are all wonderful in their way.

Whatever art we study, ultimately we do it because we enjoy it..... It's fun to train a martial art!

So to the people who would bash/judge other styles I'll offer this suggestion...

If someone wants to share their style with you... shut up and learn something. Even if it's what not to do.

Take it or leave it ..... your choice.

Just my two creds. :)


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Offline Caine

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2010, 11:59:55 PM »
Your two creds are ALWAYS worth way more than that, JKL. You are one of the people on here with true teaching and training credentials and the many years of martial arts knowledge and experience.

This is why I usually don't post in threads like these...because people start to dog other arts...when in fact it's not about the art per se (like I said a few posts back). I am not about dogging any art or anyone...all I want to do is spread the word on how wonderful ALL martial arts are....and the incorporation of sabers just an enhancement.

I posted her because I was politely asked to...and I don't really plan on posting on any other related threads.  :P

So as I always say...saberplay hard, saberplay safe and HAVE FUN!

Offline Jedi Knight Logan

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2010, 12:22:13 AM »
Of course not Master Drathul....  I'm a bit rare to come out of my cave and post as well. ;) But when I saw a new member offer something in the interest of what we are all here for... The luv of sabers... It distressed me to see that some members were quick to criticize.

That is not the environment that drew me to FX-SABERS... and I don't want to see that atmosphere disappear. :)


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Offline Novastar

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2010, 12:44:37 AM »
Don't sweat it, Logan.  Just like anything else in life... it's easy for others to "minimize" the aspects of any field/hobby/skill/trade/physical art/etc. ... ... if they don't actually practice it/them... and/or if they have not thoroughly studied them.

It's like when people (with no/limited martial experience) watch high-level boxing on TV and start to "conclude" that it is basically "trading punches" and also probably believe it's solely who is faster.

They miss things like the SUBTLE feints (both body & hand alike)... or they ignore it as "fluff"...
They miss things like the NATURAL footwork... something that the boxer had to train intensely for... so that it "looks easy".
They miss things like strategy... as in a boxer allowing the opponent to jab and hit/contact so that he can follow/counter with something more devastating in retaliation.  As one example of course.

They will miss slips/dodges... and probably NEVER understand when a boxer APPEARS to be getting handed their butt (because they are covering up and not punching much)... ... but in actuality, the boxer MAY very well be conserving energy and "trying to rest".  (A good example was actually during the famous Ali vs. Frazier... I don't remember the round, but Ali stayed 'docile' for quite a bit--all on the ropes--and then unleashed a FURIOUS chain of uninterrupted punching.  We all know what the result of the fight was, too... despite it being a challenge for Ali!)

Anyhow.  Yeah.  "Typing" about martial arts is a little like writing down how to do a b-twist round... or how to hit a baseball... or how to shoot a basket with a jump shot.  Physical arts are meant to be DONE and SEEN... although yes, writing it down helps chronicle things for the future (as we see with Arkos' posts... it's been preserved to some extent!!)

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Lyrics are meant to be sung... :)
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