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Author Topic: The 7 Forms of the Old Jedi Order  (Read 56653 times)

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Offline cyclops

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Re: The 7 Forms of the Old Jedi Order
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2008, 03:35:03 AM »
I have a question about how to grip your saber when using Shii-Cho and Makashi.

According to Wookieepedia  'In Shii-Cho form, a lightsaber is held by putting one hand on the very top, and another hand on the bottom. On the top hand, pressure was applied to the 4th finger, 5th finger, and the thumb, as if one could fight without the 3rd and 2nd fingers. The bottom hand was maneuvered in a push-pulled motion.'

My question is why, Why does this grip apply only to this form and what makes it better than a full finger/hand grip or even the Makashi grip?

Moving onto Makashi. Having read this http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Curved-hilt_lightsaber and this http://forcefx.proboards43.com/index.cgi?board=dueling&action=display&thread=4421 I believe I understand why the curved saber is important but the grip (another excerpt from wookeepedia) 'The lightsaber hilt would be held with the thumb pointing down the length of the blade to allow for smaller, tighter, more accurate movements of the saber. The rest of the fingers wrap around the hilt holding it tightly, but not so tight as to limit the fluidity of the movements.'

Does this only apply to Makashi or can it be used with other forms and/or techniques?

Hope i made sense with my questions, if not just say and I will try to rethink that which im trying to discover  ;D

Offline HAN SOLO

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Re: The 7 Forms of the Old Jedi Order
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2008, 05:12:02 AM »
I have a question about how to grip your saber when using Shii-Cho and Makashi.

According to Wookieepedia  'In Shii-Cho form, a lightsaber is held by putting one hand on the very top, and another hand on the bottom. On the top hand, pressure was applied to the 4th finger, 5th finger, and the thumb, as if one could fight without the 3rd and 2nd fingers. The bottom hand was maneuvered in a push-pulled motion.'

My question is why, Why does this grip apply only to this form and what makes it better than a full finger/hand grip or even the Makashi grip?

This most likely stems from Kenjutsu, probably whoever wrote it either studied Martial Arts or it came from Nick Gillard in his Jedi Techniques. This application is very practical to an experienced Kenjutsu Martial Artist as it allows for more fluent slashes and better body positioning. Yes, believe it or not, the index finger will guide the rest of the body. In Aikido, (Which stems from Iaido and Kenjutsu) the baby finger is where Ki flows from and the Index finger does all the directional pointing. Apply this, through practice and your swings are more direct, yet manueverable, and more powerful than a full grip. Now incorporate your whole body and Shii-Cho may be realised. ;)

I hope this helps. But this is just my humble opinion and experience. 8)


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Offline Ebon

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Re: The 7 Forms of the Old Jedi Order
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2008, 06:13:02 AM »
I think as far as the curved hilt goes, it would be more of a personal preference of the user instead of a requirment for the Makashi style. 

(I had read somewhere that the curved hilt in the movie was done because Christopher Lee had trouble gripping the straight handle, some thing about Arthritis, but I don't know if that is truth or rumor). 

You will notice though that if you grip the curved handle further down away from the blade right in the middle of the curve, you can change the attitude of the blade by simply squeezing the bottom two fingers, making for very precise tip control, much like some modern sport fencing pistol grips.   Alot of the curved one handed swords (Chinese ring swords, Hungarian sabers, etc) had slightly curved grips to allow more blade control when swinging onehanded as it can get difficult to stop the blade or alter its path once your hand starts getting tired. 

It looks like to me when Dooku is fighting in ROTS and before, he is gripping with the thumb and forefinger in a circle, allowing the blade to pivot and roll easily in his hand, then applying pressure with the little finger and ring finger to apply quick snapping cuts after the rolls.

The wookiepeedia describes how Christopher Lee is shown holding it, but not how his stand in is actually using it in my opinion.  Holding the thumb down the grip limits the ability to roll the blade as he is shown doing in the movie.
I will have to put that in tonight and look a little closer.

Ebon

Offline Firith Tar

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Re: The 7 Forms of the Old Jedi Order
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2008, 11:37:42 AM »
I think as far as the curved hilt goes, it would be more of a personal preference of the user instead of a requirment for the Makashi style. 

(I had read somewhere that the curved hilt in the movie was done because Christopher Lee had trouble gripping the straight handle, some thing about Arthritis, but I don't know if that is truth or rumor). 

You will notice though that if you grip the curved handle further down away from the blade right in the middle of the curve, you can change the attitude of the blade by simply squeezing the bottom two fingers, making for very precise tip control, much like some modern sport fencing pistol grips.   Alot of the curved one handed swords (Chinese ring swords, Hungarian sabers, etc) had slightly curved grips to allow more blade control when swinging onehanded as it can get difficult to stop the blade or alter its path once your hand starts getting tired. 

It looks like to me when Dooku is fighting in ROTS and before, he is gripping with the thumb and forefinger in a circle, allowing the blade to pivot and roll easily in his hand, then applying pressure with the little finger and ring finger to apply quick snapping cuts after the rolls.

The wookiepeedia describes how Christopher Lee is shown holding it, but not how his stand in is actually using it in my opinion.  Holding the thumb down the grip limits the ability to roll the blade as he is shown doing in the movie.
I will have to put that in tonight and look a little closer.

Ebon

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Offline Ebon

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Re: The 7 Forms of the Old Jedi Order
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2008, 12:27:58 PM »
Thanks Firith  ;D

And I think Han hit it on the head with the Shii Cho grip, sounds just like the standard Japanese grip, though he has alot more experience with that particular style than I do.  I haven't done much with katana other than books and some experimentation of my own and sparring.

The book I have (Jedi vs Sith: Essential guide to the Force)  lists all the styles and their overall philosophy, but nothing really about the techniques.  I think it will be pretty hard to emulate some of them since we can't actually recreate the blaster blocking, etc.  Ataru will be hard unless you have an Olympic gymnast handy as we don't have any Force assisted jumping available as well hehe...   I'm really kicking around doing my own takes on some of them though, sounds fun...

Ebon


Offline Firith Tar

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Re: The 7 Forms of the Old Jedi Order
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2008, 12:33:28 PM »
Yes Han of course is right, that is expected as he is the Japanese Sword arts guru!!! I pale in comparision.
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Offline cyclops

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Re: The 7 Forms of the Old Jedi Order
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2008, 06:47:13 AM »
Awesome, Thanks Ebon and Han. Youre experience has totally helped me in understanding the Shii-cho and Makashi grips.
Im gonna have to incorporate these into my next Saber session.

Offline HAN SOLO

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Re: The 7 Forms of the Old Jedi Order
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2008, 09:44:14 AM »
Yes Han of course is right, that is expected as he is the Japanese Sword arts guru!!! I pale in comparision.

 :-[ Thanks. However, Master Logan is the true Japanese Sword Arts Guru here on this Site. You need answers, he's smarter than I on Japanese Sword ways, physically and spiritually. ;) (My few years of experience pale to his decades of training. ;))

Love the link you sent me, Firith. Some really humbling info on there.

Cyclops, since Jedi and Sith combat is a variant of real world arts, try and incorporate what you feel comfortable with, all the while referrencing and resourcing the links and posts on the thread.

Who knows, perhaps we'll have a "One-Eye, Zero In" precise technique! ;)


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Offline Firith Tar

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Re: The 7 Forms of the Old Jedi Order
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2008, 12:46:32 PM »
Yes Han of course is right, that is expected as he is the Japanese Sword arts guru!!! I pale in comparision.

 :-[ Thanks. However, Master Logan is the true Japanese Sword Arts Guru here on this Site. You need answers, he's smarter than I on Japanese Sword ways, physically and spiritually. ;) (My few years of experience pale to his decades of training. ;))

Love the link you sent me, Firith. Some really humbling info on there.

Cyclops, since Jedi and Sith combat is a variant of real world arts, try and incorporate what you feel comfortable with, all the while referrencing and resourcing the links and posts on the thread.

Who knows, perhaps we'll have a "One-Eye, Zero In" precise technique! ;)

No problem you are talking to a guy who is looking around my desk and am seeing; Warriors of medieval Japan, and Samurai : the world of the warrior (Stephen Turnbull) along with The shabhala guid to Kendo (Minoru Kiyota) Iai : the art of dwaing the sword (Darrell Max Craig), Secrets of the Samurai : a survey of the martial arts of Feudal Japan (Oscar Ratti, Adele Westbrook), Sword and Brush : the spirit of the martial arts (Dave Lowry), Aikido Toho Iai (Micheal Russ), Prctice drills for japanese swordsmanship (Nicklaus Suino) Kodo ancient ways (Kensho Furuya), The martial artist's book of the five rings : the definitive interpretation of Miyamoto Musashi's classic book of Strategy (Stephen F. Kaufman).... and that is without getting up  ;D but like you only have a few years of real experience so my knowledge is shallow....
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Offline cyclops

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Re: The 7 Forms of the Old Jedi Order
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2008, 02:29:03 AM »
Quote
Cyclops, since Jedi and Sith combat is a variant of real world arts, try and incorporate what you feel comfortable with, all the while referrencing and resourcing the links and posts on the thread.

Train as a Jedi I must  :) Great Advice! Thanks, Hopefully I will be able to create a sweet looking choreography routine, which is what I love about Star Wars, amongst the great story!

Quote
Who knows, perhaps we'll have a "One-Eye, Zero In" precise technique!

That would be cool. Just yesterday a friend and I were practicing our stage combat from the tutorial posted by Kit Fisto. I believe this should be the true first form. Whilst incorporating the Jedi training technique known as velocities , suffice it to say his technique was spot on, almost lost my eye  ;D
More practice for me I thinks.  :D

Offline HAN SOLO

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Re: The 7 Forms of the Old Jedi Order
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2008, 10:58:23 PM »
Aikido Toho Iai (Micheal Russ)

GREAT TUTORIAL and APPLIED Book!

I love how it incorporates ALL of the tatics. Whether it is unarmed, armed or the brief, but very informative History.

Cyclops, being a bit of a stikler, but no links allowed in your Sig. (Just Mods and Saber Guild Members)

Just place it in your profile and type in your Sig something like...."Hey check out my profile, there's some cool stuff in it." ;)


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Offline Ramaditya

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Re: The 7 Forms of the Old Jedi Order
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2008, 08:45:40 PM »
Well, it will probably be helpful for me if someone can describe each form through words, such as how the position of the body and the saber must be, or how to perform the technique.

(I cannot see videos, sorry)
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Offline Tulak Hord

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Re: The 7 Forms of the Old Jedi Order
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2009, 10:21:30 AM »
Personally, ive been working on developing all the style's of combat in starwars as well as some of my own lightsaber combat forms. Being I use a double bladed lightsaber it is very important that I understand bo staff forms, as well as spear and sword forms. I have training in Kendo, Hema, Fencing, Escrima, as well as some Kung fu Staff training. So far I have completed shii-cho. The first form is the basics of sword play. The second form in shii-cho is based on attack and defense, the third form is based on movement and the fourth and final form is the most complex dedicated to disarming your opponent. This fourth part of this form is broke into four sections. First, cut the opponents weapon hand, Second, Cut weapon arm, Thrid Cut saber or remove from hand, Fourth  is glancing blows to cut the tendons and make the weapon arm useless.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2009, 04:14:16 PM by Tulak Hord »
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Offline Jedi Knight Logan

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Re: The 7 Forms of the Old Jedi Order
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2009, 11:30:46 AM »
Haven't seen anything in this thread for awhile... :D

My humble recommendation is to seek training in some type of classical swordsmanship. Keep in mind, the lightsaber choreography we've all come to associate w/ lightsaber combat takes it's roots from stage sword whcih takes it's roots from real world swordsmanship. This does take a commitment on the part of the enthusiast... but the rewards are worth it. ;) If you become proficient in a particular sword art weilding a saber is cake.  :)


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Offline Darth Magnus

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Re: The 7 Forms of the Old Jedi Order
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2009, 02:04:32 PM »
Of all the quizilla quizzes  i get vaapad every time