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Author Topic: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"  (Read 16936 times)

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Offline Jedi Knight Logan

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2010, 01:18:25 AM »
Don't sweat it, Logan. 

Never do Nova, ;) but thanks man. :) I just happened to be in the neighborhood. (Had to pick up some milk on my way back to the Outer Rim).

But man you hit the nail on the head with the ability of folks to "minimize" and not see the forest through the trees.

Now I do not necessarily see this as a negative... it seems a quite natural occurrence within fighting arts that the longer they go with out having to (be in the poodoo) as it where... that they generally start to develop more and more well... "detailed" movements. This can add richness to the art, so again, I don't see anything wrong with it.

There is a reason we do the fight club at the school behind a screen...it can be unsettling to some people. But what I tell the students  is usually something along the lines of..."Fighting is a Big Bloody Mess... learning to fight is FUN!"

It's unfortunate that some people only see the benefit in training if it means they can kill their enemy instantly! Police officers love to talk with these dudes...LOL.

What they don't seem to realize is people will do MA for different reasons... not all of them are seeking to avenge their family's deaths at the hands of the local suburban Ninja Clan.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 01:55:07 AM by Jedi Knight Logan »


"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack..."

Offline Arkos

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2010, 02:05:17 AM »
ho wow! what an interesting discussion there! thanks for you point of view, I learned many many thing there!

About me you have to know I never practiced any martial art, I wish to, but never had the chance (not the time for that, I was yet praticing a sport, I am a free diver instructor).
I did practice a very light form of escrime with lightsabers learning some things from place to place with each other knowledge, and learned to playing those spinning thing with the blade "for movement beauty"

I mean I cant judge anything on martial arts.

I just think that trying to "act" a "fight" like seen in movies is just impossible since "real lightsabers" dont exist and "real force adepts" with supernatural sense dont exist too.

beside this, taking real martial art techniques, gymnastics tricks and some stunt fx would do it well, but nothing to see with a "martial" art, I just tried it
1) for the fun (and acting a jedi on a stage for 1 min is great, i did it in front of 1200 peoples that was quite... scaring too)
2) for the show   ( seeing people enjoying a show, making them smile and having fun becose of your work is a great satisfaction to me )

on martial art my POV is that human body is the same everywhere
physics law are the same everywhere
so all the martial art have a common base, different cultures, different time, make different choices but most of these arts are linked.

after that like I often say: since black powder exist, there is no more strong men lol

martial arts are to me, a school of self control, respect and humility, I wish I learn more of them but here and now I just would meet some of you to learn some awesome movement to "play" around with my Crystal Focus powered saber Gnehehehehe  8)

thanks for having took (sp?) the time to answer me Ladies and Gentlemens!

Offline Jedi Knight Logan

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2010, 02:19:13 AM »
Since I have not had the pleasure, welcome Arkos!


"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack..."

Offline Arkos

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2010, 03:51:00 AM »
Thank you very much !

Offline Arkos

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2010, 04:06:35 AM »
I just wich to post a last message, from a member, Onli-Won Kanomi, that described far better than me what I would to point
A couple of points:

1. Lightsabers are not [or rather, if they were real, would not be] swords. A lot of things sword users think about sword use WOULD NOT APPLY to lightsabers if they were real. For example "strike with the edge, parry with the flat" doesnt apply because lightsaber blades are omnidirectional cutting surfaces that have no flats, lightsabers blades don't have weight like sword blades, lightsabers do have a 'gyroscopic effect' that swords don't, lightsaber blades do 'lock' [rather their electromagnetic containment fields do] which sword blades do not [which is why lightsabers don't have nor need crossguards and swords do], lightsaber blades are essentially 'unbreakable' [rather self-renewing] which swords are not, lightsabers are essentially frictionless cutters in most materials even HARD material which swords are not [meaning that lightsaber cuts are almost always more damaging than 'giving point' many sword authorities incl R.F. Burton consider superior] etc etc etc

So when we see lightsaber use in the movies it should be remembered they are not swords nor because of that are they used like swords.

2. Lightsaber users are not [or rather, if they were real Jedi or Sith as seen in SW fiction, would not be] sword users. Even when they are nominally or near 'human' they are functionally SUPERHUMAN; specifically they are tactically-precognitive telekinetics. This explains WHY lightsabers would exist in the SW Universe in the first place; telekinetics can deflect the mass of matter weapons [or projectiles] so an energy or practically near-massless particle beam blade or projectile is necessary to hit them at all. It also explains why a lot of sword techniques would be useless when both combatants can 'foresee' simple direct strikes...'fancy' extended sequences of complex moves thus complicate the challenge of defending against them in the present while simultaneously foreseeing others in the future when both combatants have tactical precognition. Anyone who has experienced the more limited precognition that exists in our world and knows how CONFUSING seeing "two times at once" is can well imagine how confusing it would be to FIGHT in an advanced future form of such a prescient state, even with advanced perceptual/conceptual integration mental disciplines...Jedi/Sith TACTICS would be designed to exploit that potential for temporal-dynamics confusion of enemies anachronological or bichronological thought processing and thus be very different from human[oid, mostly] sword tactics in significant ways.

So when we see lightsaber USERS in the movies it should be remembered they are not [mere human] sword users nor that they would use sword technique like we would.

Combining these two factors accounts for why lightsaber use in the movies cannot be assumed to follow sword use 'rules' or principles.

IRL "no spins for the win" makes good sense...in SW lightsaber combat where one is trying to confuse a tactically-precognitive TK foe with many complex changes motion/orientation of an easily redirected weightless frictionless 360 degree cutting blade fancy spins may not be so useless eh?

from that topic
http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?topic=23280.0

To finish my post, I would point that in the movie, only force users use a lightsaber in battle, so trying to fence as a "Jedi" with an amazing prop, ok, but not a real lightsaber is just... impossible
Ok that dont stop us to have fun with thems haha!!
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 04:11:15 AM by Arkos »

Offline Dearth Breather

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2010, 05:10:20 AM »
Welcome, Arkos! *takes notes* :)

Offline Orakaa

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2010, 05:49:50 AM »
Hello Arkos (I'm french too, living near Paris).

I already thought of putting some links about "canne de combat" (fighting stick ?).
A friend of mine is an experienced practitioner (he's been training in this for over 5 years) and he showed me some moves with my lightsaber... oh boy, I think we all agree that it might NOT be the most efficient martial art, but then again, we are talking about "hypothetically" practicing this with a lightsaber (like a real one).

And THERE, we have something closer to what we can have seen in movies (prequels), and, to my opinion, more efficient in a REAL lightsaber fight (spinning around and moving your saber really fast can cover a lot more surface, and as a lightsaber is deadly just by touching it, it makes it even more dangerous).

When my finances get better (currently looking for a job but can't find anything yet), I'll probably go to the same course as my friend and start to really get into "canne de combat" (with the goal of using it for lightsabers)

EDIT : what I mostly meant was that to me it is more appealling to use a lightsaber with "canne de combat" approach as it is more aesthetic : let's be honest, I will NEVER fight in a lightsaber duel, or even use my lightsaber to defend myself, so I'm more interested in "performing", rather than be really efficient (if I want to be efficient in our era, I bring a gun, not a polcarb glowing stick)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 11:27:01 PM by Orakaa »

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Offline Arkos

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2010, 08:17:37 AM »
well I lived 31 in the Paris suburb ^^

as I said before, all depends of the goal: acting a fence like jedi or doing a fence for the sport, for the fun...
in the first case it seems very difficult to know what is effective or not! in the second, having some try and discuss could be fun :)

Offline nartules

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight?: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2010, 12:32:46 PM »
You can never say one style of fighting is more effective then another.  Just as people defer in their abilities to perform other tasks, such as singing/dancing, certain individual's are just going to be better at fighting.

The level of ability to the practitioner is going to be the difference in most fights.  Some styles are more effective for one individual over another.  Like Cain said, its the person that makes the difference. 


Time will bring the real end of our trial.  One day they'll be no remnants

Offline Daishi

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2010, 01:53:04 AM »
Thanks for sharing, my opinion is not very different from what a lot of other people here have already said =p but again thanks

For REAL combat....NO WAY. I would never react to a real attack the same way I would spar someone. As long as you are able to understand the difference between the two, the better off you will be.  ;)

Also keep in mind that in real combat, you aren't going to always look as good with your finesse as if you would in a controlled environment. Hence the wild swings, etc. I have pretty decent technique with my Eskrima training, but when I did some full contact stickfighting, well...the technique was there yes, but not the finesse....and that is OK.

I don't quite agree with that, Sparing is another form of training. Of course your not going to kill your opponent but you must strike as if you are going to, like in training. Training in reactions you don't intend to do increases the chance to become accustomed to bad habits. I agree holding back counts towards being in a "controlled environment" but the ability to control your own power and to control your swings which would seriously hurt someone but being able to make it not, Would make you that much more skilled.


Unless to you "Sparing" is just play fighting... in which case ignore me =p


2. It's easy to say what you would do tucked safely behind a keyboard, but fact is ... You don't know what will happen until it happens.... I can watch a MMA fight and pick it apart all day long. Being in there for the fun adds quite a different POV.

No one Plans what they are going to do when they get into combat it doesn't work like that like you said earlier in your post. However this is why basics are key in any art, you learn them so its instinctive of course your not going to do whatever Kata you practiced over and over again, but your body will instinctively move the way it should...

combined 2 quotes summary: This is why we spar, we train how our bodies should react... Like you said JKL we use our wit, but our bodies, and us as a person do the rest naturally.

just from personal experience, I may not reflect every Tech/Kata/style I've learned flawlessly because it dose not sit in every situation... but you adapt what you know to the situation so it fits... but at the same time you don't plan from the start what to do. Because you NEVER know 100% what they are going to do.

Modify: I Hope I didn't sound like a troll or anything I intended this as an energetic/explanatory kind of post... I didn't think it did, but I hope no one takes my words as if they are... harsh? I worry because its easy to miss interpenetrate what other people intend on forums.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2010, 02:03:57 AM by Daishi »
Want  duel? Lets Roll some dice, anyone can win. ;p

Combat tips? See my Profile in the Website URL Area of my Profile. 
(or if you are lazy =D) http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?topic=23280.0

Closest to RL Style: Jar'Kai with some of the principles of Soresu

Offline Jedi Knight Logan

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Re: A Martial Art close to Lightsaber fight: "Canne de Combat"
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2010, 08:17:33 PM »

No one Plans what they are going to do when they get into combat it doesn't work like that like you said earlier in your post. However this is why basics are key in any art, you learn them so its instinctive of course your not going to do whatever Kata you practiced over and over again, but your body will instinctively move the way it should...

combined 2 quotes summary: This is why we spar, we train how our bodies should react... Like you said JKL we use our wit, but our bodies, and us as a person do the rest naturally.

just from personal experience, I may not reflect every Tech/Kata/style I've learned flawlessly because it dose not sit in every situation... but you adapt what you know to the situation so it fits... but at the same time you don't plan from the start what to do. Because you NEVER know 100% what they are going to do.


Hey Daishi, yes you never know what is going down in a fight until you are in a fight...LOL.

Just to clarify, when I spoke of using my wits, I was speaking of what went down before violence ensued, (as in diffusing the situation). Once the line is crossed from pre-fight if you will... to fight then intellect takes a back seat to body intelligence.

That being said, you are correct in basics being one of the essentials in martial arts training... they are  the foundation upon which all else is built. But basics are only one piece of the puzzle. It is a combination of several elements that make up a good fighter.  Sparring can be another key element... However, "sparring" is a very subjective term.  To some it is play fighting, sometimes it is an athletic competition. Many acts of sparring I have seen involve a "back and forth" play similar to tennis... this is not the way a fight plays out.

Ultimately,  fight training is a simulation.... and can never EXACTLY reproduce the actual encounter. The only event that completely mimics a fight is well... a fight. Now an actual fist fight can result in serious injury or death. Consider how this likelihood multiplies when dealing with a weapons based encounter.

That's another thing, the word FIGHT is also highly subjective... do you mean a combat sport match?... self defense?... mortal combat in a time of war? All of them are considerably different from one another. Specialization is needed here.

In my training... the emphasis on fighting is for the street/bar/etc.. So... protective gear goes on, whistle blows... you hit each other really hard and a lot  until one is left standing. It's usually over very quickly... next. I prefer the mentality of a fight club. But that is a specialization, if one is training to fight for extended periods in a ring for example... then another  fight training method is required.

Actually, martial training itself is only one tool in the tool box of being a fighter. Many people get hung up on the more skilled fighter having the decisive advantage... but this only applies if all other factors are equal.

Unfortunately, all other factors are almost never equal. Genetics, desire, and experience to name a few... should never be overlooked.

In my experience, the expression of "winning a fight is 90% WILL and 10% SKILL rings very true. This is not to say in any way that training is unimportant. But one of the main things I wanted to convey in my 1st. post was that training a MA is about more than fighting. Most everyday people are NOT getting into fights regularly...

ONE of the many benefits martial arts gives an individual is a knowledge of self defense. But when I hear martial arts students harp on self defense this... combat that... I think it's a shame that they may spend their entire life training for some grand battle which more than likely will never happen. With experience and training, you realize that if attacked... you will respond. After that, you can settle in and enjoy just how much FUN training is.

Maybe it is the fighting you enjoy... maybe the tradition... the exercise.... all are worth the effort. :)

LOL... this thread seems to have drifted from the topic a bit. Perhaps a new topic is in order if folks are interested in continuing this line of discussion?


"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack..."

 

retrousse