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Author Topic: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation  (Read 45696 times)

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Offline STARKILLER

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A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
« on: August 03, 2013, 10:24:33 AM »
We're on vacation, so I'm trying real hard to not get on the forums so I can enjoy the time off with my family. However, something was brought to our attention by a few friends that really irked me. It seems some people at another forum took it upon themselves to take apart one of our Havocs and make several assumptions, pontificate on some really bad information and generally slander our product and compare us to another company I will not mention. Since that forum deliberately keeps out several reputable smiths so they can continue to spread bad info, I have to post this here and dirty this forum in an effort to correct the problem.

First, I don't remember  in the last 5 years where I've ever NOT helped a customer out with one of our products if they actually came to us to give us an opportunity to do so. Since these are all handmade products, we can acknowledge that nothing is ever perfect and there will be times where things happen. However, to slander a company in public and disguise it as an 'upgrade' thread, after you didn't give them an opportunity to fix something shows petty and ulterior motives. Let's get to the "issues" that were discussed.

The heatsink:

It's no secret that for the last few years....well....since the beginning really, we've used a copper pipe cap for an optics module in our entry level sabers. We admit, it's not the most glamorous looking solution, and we've changed a few things about it after getting customer feedback and our own testing. However, it WORKS. It is a VIABLE heatsink as it is made from COPPER and does a fine job of transferring heat to the hilt which is the only job a heatsink has to accomplish. To compare what we use to a chrome plated zinc alloy nut with no heat transfer ability shows great ignorance. The copper cap has more than adequate mass and conductivity to pull heat away from the LED and get it to open air to dissipate. We have a design that is 'machined' to fit, and it is quite a bit more expensive to get mass produced but when we find the right cost balance we'll make it happen. This however, is mainly aesthetic and not necessarily for any kind of functional improvement.  For reference, in thermal conductivity, copper trumps aluminum by a long shot and aluminum only has 60% of the thermal conductivity of copper. So to replace the existing copper heatsink with an aluminum one was really just for aesthetics and offers no improvement in heat transfer and to postulate it as anything else is plain stupid.  In fact it creates a reduction in thermal conductivity so is an inferior solution for functionality.

The ...ah....'color' of the heatshrink. You don't like yellow....um....ok.

On certain colors, we don't resist the main LED. Yep, you caught us. We had the Shard made to operate on a single 3.7v cell so we wouldn't have to worry about resisting main LEDs except in the cases of reds/ambers. You see, current draw is a CONSEQUENCE, and when the vf of the LED is close the source voltage of the battery, it only draws what current it needs, therefore, no resistor is needed. Occasionally, and VERY occasionally a Tri-Rebel will draw more than the 2A that the onboard transistor will allow. In this case, the genius that is Erv' put in a digital control so you can limit the LED. It is the onboard "Drive" parameter. does it work for huge voltage drops like with a red? Nope. This is why we use an external resistor on the red LEDs.

Splitting Wires: Any sabersmith worth his solder, learns early on about wiring economy in order to avoid the spaghetti messes seen on poorly wired sabers. When wiring compact sabers, It is often necessary to split, or share wires with common polarity in order to reduce the overall number of wires in the hilt. This does not negatively affect the saber in any way. We also use a very expensive, high quality wire. It is thin, yes, but is rated REALLY well and it's equal cannot be found here domestically so it is imported. If you choose to use a separate lead for everything in order to not confuse yourself, this is fine, but don't use it as a talking point to try and slam another company.

Bringing up our older 'prototype' stunts to compare them to our work today is pretty silly. Our older stunts were sold as "prototypes" as we worked through what materials and techniques we were going to use. Our older AAA spring pack worked for a time, and after feed back that showed the spring pack interfered with the Pololu's ability to function properly as impacts would often cause the Pololu to reset in our stunts. This is why we now use the single 18650 solution in a nice and tight holder for both stunts and sound versions. If there is a problem with a saber shutting down on impact now, it is most likely due to another issue, like a bad battery PCB, or a loose SD card. But since no one came to us with any questions or issues, I guess we'll never know. Also, to criticize someone's work for not functioning after it has changed hands 2, 3+ times is petty.

I've always felt that we go over and above for our customers and the community in general. We often go over and above even our stated warranty, so if someone who obtained one of our sabers encountered a problem, we would have loved to have been given the opportunity to demonstrate our willingness to accommodate them. Normally, I wouldn't even respond to something so petty while on vacation, but when a post was done not in the effort to educate or to even show off a redux of someones work, but rather as an attempt to slander our reputation and business, it required my attention. So if anyone has any questions as to why we do things on any of our sabers, please feel free to ask. Also, if any customers have feedback on something, we're always willing to listen and if it makes sense, change things based on it. That's what REAL sabersmiths do. It's unfortunate that the offending post was made, and I guess it achieved it's purpose of being hurtful. I just felt the need to come in and correct the misinformation that is spread as it is the habit of a certain group to speak loudly and as often as possible to make people believe something is true, even if it's utter fabrication.



« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 07:11:01 PM by LUMINARA UNDULI »


Offline LUKE SKYWALKER

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2013, 11:04:16 AM »
I have to agree 100% what you said Alan!!! Speaking about the Havoc, I've never used a "low cost stunt" lightsaber made with such detail and quality inside and outside!


Offline Professor Huyang

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2013, 11:19:17 AM »
I'm sorry this pulled you from vaca Alan. I really hate this kind of thing. It reminds me of the old saying "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

Or as Jay-gon would put it, "Quit yer bitchin and build your sabers."

I don't really think anyone here has any doubts as to the quality of your product, or your customer service. I hope this isn't a sign of things to come between these two forums, because there is a lot of talent on both boards.
"Many years I have been on this ship teaching many a Jedi before you, and I will continue teaching many a Jedi after you. Call me what you want, but inside my memory banks I contain a record of every lightsaber ever made, and the Jedi who fashioned it."
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Offline DarkJediKnight

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2013, 11:25:43 AM »
Your work is top notch Starkiller. I would definitely not let this ruin your day. Ignorant people always have ignorant things coming out of their mouths. Your best reaction is to ignore them because they want the attention. People here know the REAL quality and will always recognize you and many others for it. Have a great weekend and remember...........they are just ignorant!  ;D
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Offline Fat Ewok

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2013, 11:46:49 AM »
I'm pretty sure I remembered you guys helping me out when my Havoc speaker blew and the SD card corrupted on my first day. I was, for one, actually very impressed that you guys were able to quickly rectify the situation without lancing a hole in my wallet despite the fact that it may have been me being clumsy with the item.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 11:49:56 AM by Fat Ewok »

Offline sithslayer1

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2013, 11:54:36 AM »
Greatness courts jealousy. VV is one of the FINEST sabersmith companies in the entire hobby, Period, Bar NONE!  Also very nice, cool people to boot! Sorry this garbage pulled you away from your vacation,  Alan!

Offline Darth Smorgis

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2013, 12:02:06 PM »
Wow.  I had not heard or read any of this information posted about you product.  It is unfortunate.
I won't even ask where this information was posted ::)

I actually just sent you guys a PM a few days ago about an led I pulled from one of your proto/stunt sabers quite a while ago.  I was just going to use it in another stunt saber that I was putting together and was not trying to pry information about your product or its quality, nor did know any of this discussion was going on.  Hope I did not raise a flag when you got the message.  The information was solely or my own use.

I have loved every one of my Vaders Vault sabers.  From Stunts, to Entry level sabers with sound, all the way to your high end sabers.  I regret having to sell my C.S. Fury's but hope to replace them some day soon.  Your reputation speaks for itself guys, so don't let this ruin your family trip.  Now log off and enjoy some quality time together.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 12:04:19 PM by Darth Smorgis »


Offline Darksaber 3

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2013, 12:44:35 PM »
This is unfortunate. I have owned a stunt from one of these other companies, and literally within a couple days of its short warrentee ending, the LED blew because it wasnt properly resisted, and because it was mounted with hot glue on a zinc nut.

After that incident, I recently got one of your Havoc stunts, and let me say, it is one of the finest stunts I have ever used. The chassis system you implemented with the 18650 is as good as it gets. As for the copper tube caps, those are excellent heat sinks and anyone with a basic engineering/scientific knowledge would know this.

There really isn't anything of this quality in the sub $200 price range, except perhaps the Generals Malakytes.

Offline Corran Horn

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2013, 12:51:51 PM »
Since that forum deliberately keeps out several reputable smiths so they can continue to spread bad info, I have to post this here and dirty this forum in an effort to correct the problem.

The forum in question has an open registration policy.  It has not ever banned a member, denied a member from registering, or stopped anyone from defending themselves or their work.

You should come by some time, you might actually like it there.

I know some of your friends have.

"It's only stupid if we die doing it, otherwise it's heroism." -Corran Horn-

Offline LUMINARA UNDULI

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2013, 01:32:44 PM »
All I can say is I was told by more than one Admin that I was not welcome at that other forum.  What is claimed and what actually happens in practice are two different things ;).

Another post was made over there insinuating that FX-SABERs deletes valid feedback and doesn't allow any criticism.  That could not be further from the truth.  There are several of us on the Council that have championed freedom of speech for years.  Several years ago we did have one rogue MOD who was doing some things against the will of the rest of the Council and the site's owner, that MOD is no longer here for those reasons.  In addition, the person who was IP banned was done so for valid reasons.  Rarely in the history of FX-SABERs has anyone ever been IP banned.

The original post was not specifically about that other forum, or one forum vs. another.  It was regarding a post made by a member and some subsequent posts on the subject.  The post was mean-spirited, hurtful, and slanderous.  Regarding that forum itself, there is room in the world for many forums and there should be absolutely no reason why all forums cannot peaceably co-exist.  What would go a long way in making that happen would be if a certain small number of folks would stop trying to attack VV, FX-Sabers, Plecter Labs, etc.  We should all be supporting one another, rather than trying to tear each other down.

With the Havocs and Furies our goal was to bring an affordable quality product to the community.  We recognize that not everyone can afford a high end custom and at the time we decided to develop the product, most of the low priced alternatives had some quality issues.  We wanted to offer an alternative to those.  Since then there have been others who have done the same.  LDM and Madcow to name two.  We are glad to have been a part of this movement and now there are a lot of affordable quality alternatives available to the community :). 



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Offline Corran Horn

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2013, 01:49:04 PM »
All I can say is I was told by more than one Admin that I was not welcome at that other forum.  What is claimed and what actually happens in practice are two different things ;).

As a member of the moderator staff, I am actually QUALIFIED to speak on what is "claimed and what actually happens", and it's exceptionally easier to do when both things are one and the same.

For that reason I have already reached out to the OP regarding this situation and hope that rather than inciting a flame war, this whole situation can be resolved peacefully and with proper understanding being brought to both parties.


"It's only stupid if we die doing it, otherwise it's heroism." -Corran Horn-

Offline LUMINARA UNDULI

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2013, 01:51:52 PM »
Keil, as a Moderator there I have no doubt that you are saying what you believe to be true.  As a long standing member of this community, I can tell you that I was told by two ADMINS what I posted above.  I have no reason to lie about it and, had the door been open we would have gone there to refute the post and defend our product rather than posting here.

Again, this is really about an individual spreading incorrect technical information in an attempt to slander our product, not about forum vs. forum.  I have no problem with someone objectively posting an opinion or doing a fair and honest review.  The post in question at that other forum was not such a post ;).

« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 01:59:19 PM by LUMINARA UNDULI »



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Offline Corran Horn

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2013, 02:00:08 PM »
Keil, as a Moderator there I have no doubt that you are saying what you believe to be true.  As a long standing member of this community, I can tell you that I was told by two ADMINS what I posted above.  I have no reason to lie about it and, had the door been open we would have gone there to refute the post and defend our product rather than posting here.

As a moderator there, and a member here, I'm simply trying to keep things civil Lumi, I am truly sorry that things are going in the direction that they are.  If you would like to continue the discussion, or if anyone else has concerns, by all means contact me and we can go further with it if you wish.

I'm an easy guy to reach.  Keiledge84@gmail.com or csjprops@gmail.com

"It's only stupid if we die doing it, otherwise it's heroism." -Corran Horn-

Offline LUMINARA UNDULI

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2013, 02:01:58 PM »
Thank you Keil, I appreciate that.  I will be in touch.  Internet is sporadic at the moment, but as soon as I can get somewhere I'll hit you up.



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Offline Corran Horn

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2013, 02:07:59 PM »
Thank you Keil, I appreciate that.  I will be in touch.  Internet is sporadic at the moment, but as soon as I can get somewhere I'll hit you up.


Actually what you SHOULD do....... GO GET SOME REST!!! You're on vacation for crying out loud! Hahaha.

"It's only stupid if we die doing it, otherwise it's heroism." -Corran Horn-

 

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