What is a SABER ARTS ATHLETE?

[bombarta]

Ok maybe my reference to fencing style still isn't clear but watch any of the old 1950's movies like Robin Hood or the scarlet pimpanel and you will get what i mean, you always get the one person so good with the sword he hardly has to move and makes his opponents do all work, well to me that's dukoo watch how he deals with savage and ventress together. Or Anthony Hopkins teaching Antonio banderez in zorro how he uses a sword, he barley moves position, dukoo hardly moves but is fast with saber. Even the Spanish sword teacher in game of thrones has the distinct style. I also think the curved handle suits a forward thrust in fencing extremely well when held on the curve of the handle.
Lets just call it movie fencing and let's face it thats all the saber scenes are. Pre scripted and rehearsed with plenty of takes to get it right. Try it for real you'd die in seconds as i wait for you to stop waving it around and 1 hit your dead. I watched plenty of saber duelling on the tube it's all single strike and no form witch iludes to any saber style. At least fencing and kendo look the same as how they train in competition. 

[Xene]

While i would love to say im an athlete (mostly cause i never have xD) i dont think id meet the standards. A few years ago i was "ok" when i hsd a lot of time to practice i borrowed bits and peices from videos and practiced till i got it right.But i could never find any good tutorial vids on styles i liked, nor someone really to spar/practice with.

Its interesting (to me anyway) that my showey flashy style (one i use to show off my saber) is while different,  simular to how i actually fight with a sword (found out at a sparring thing at a festival) and can be ludicrously effective O.o (provided opponent isnt ready for it xD)

I do looks forward to your tutorial vids sir! Hopefully i will get back to swingin my saber!

[Jm419]

Ok maybe my reference to fencing style still isn't clear but watch any of the old 1950's movies like Robin Hood or the scarlet pimpanel and you will get what i mean, you always get the one person so good with the sword he hardly has to move and makes his opponents do all work, well to me that's dukoo watch how he deals with savage and ventress together.

Well, yes, the old films - the Fourth Musketeer has an excellent sword-fighting scene, though it's not really fencing - showcase stage swordplay well.  Still, the animated Dooku doesn't really have much bearing on this discussion - IIRC, no live actress ever played Ventress onscreen, and as TFU shows us, animation allows characters to perform movements which would result in dismemberment in real life (Starkiller's lightsaber passes through his arm or torso in some of his combos).

As far as the ROTS or AOTC engagement, Dooku's style isn't fencing, and it's not kendo - by that point in the films, they kinda knew what they wanted lightsaber combat to look like, and they assigned a style to Dooku and called it fencing, but it's no closer to fencing than it is to medieval sidesword engagements.

I also think the curved handle suits a forward thrust in fencing extremely well when held on the curve of the handle.
Lets just call it movie fencing and let's face it thats all the saber scenes are.

Well, no, they're not fencing.  They're lightsaber combat, and that gets into the whole discussion about how we can't really know how an "infinite-sharpness, omni-directional blade" would function, particularly one that can't be redirected or parried save by either another lightsaber blade.  You're correct, obviously - it's all choreographed, to be sure - but since the weapon is so different than anything we know, we don't understand how the combat would have evolved.   

Try it for real you'd die in seconds as i wait for you to stop waving it around and 1 hit your dead. I watched plenty of saber duelling on the tube it's all single strike and no form witch iludes to any saber style.

You've touched on the principal fault in nearly every movie sword fight, from Revenge of the Sith to The Princess Bride.  The actors leave these tremendous openings in their defenses for the sake of showy movements, which someone who's been trained in the laser-precise linear fencing arts can recognize.  That's why fencing evolved - well, partly.  The smallsword is arguably the most refined sword ever designed, because the thing was so deadly in combat that you had to train in smallsword combat just to defend yourself.  There were ways to deal with the smallsword - one of which was the pistol - but you're correct; for the most part, a lightning-quick straight thrust when Anakin has his blade arm behind his head during a spin would quickly end the duel.

[bombarta]

I just took a look at the fight scenes been a while and yep not fencing in any sense of the word probably just called  it that as I've read it before. closest thing is the old swash bucklers movies and pirate fights I previously mentioned.

as for Omni directional, well no they are not real and had carbon fibre rods in the sabers, so its just a sword fight in a movie like any other.

[WookieeGunner]

So there is an urban legend that Errol Flynn was so unsafe with the sword that the stunt coordinator would only allow Errol to fence against the stunt coordinator himself.

And as far as the "typical movie swashbuckling style" that would be Bob Anderson's work.  Who happened to be Vader's fighting double in A New Hope.  Bob Anderson was an Olympic Fencer in the 50's for Britain.

[Jm419]

And as far as the "typical movie swashbuckling style" that would be Bob Anderson's work.  Who happened to be Vader's fighting double in A New Hope.  Bob Anderson was an Olympic Fencer in the 50's for Britain.

Interesting.   I didn't know that.  Cool!

[Novastar]

Yup, it went a little bit like this:

VOICE OF VADER - James Earl Jones (duh)
BODY OF VADER - Dave Prowse (EP IV, V, VI)
FIGHTING VADER - Peter Diamond (most likely... in EP IV)  .... but Bob Anderson in EP V and EP VI

There is some debate whether there were a few stunt doubles / extras / stand-ins for Vader in many cases (and there was even a stunt double for Luke during FIGHT ACTIONS---and not just the flying out window--in Episode V), but it's sometimes hard to say.

Why is it hard to say?  Well... apparently, LFL didn't really properly CREDIT some of these guys.  In fact... I don't even think Bob Anderson *WAS* credited (officially, in film credits) originally.  But IDK.  It gets complicated.

As for saber fights in films... this is the same conversation as always... IT'S STAGED/FILMED COMBAT.  Always governed by the choreographer at hand, the performers themselves ("style") and their experience/training/strengths/weaknesses... and what the director asks for/wants.

In EP IV, we saw an entirely different and interesting "style" of the choreo.  I just finished doing the Obi-Wan v Vader fight for several live performances, and... it was a lot of work... but fun, too.  :)  Video coming soon.

EP V's style changed due to the choreographer changing, AND because Mark Hamill & Bob Anderson were able to convince George Lucas that a few one-handed actions could add variety and fun to the fight... which GL was originally vehemently against.

This style carried through EP V... but if you'll notice... in EP VI... there are (once again) almost *NO* one-handed actions!  :)  Did anyone ever note that?  heheheh  I found it interesting.

Anyhow... yeah... bottom lines are:

* You have to be dedicated
* You have to put in the work
* You have to look at others' work and "what has come before"
* You have to train (and experiment) on all the aspects of saber combat (which I've categorized as a GUIDE, many times before)

Pretty much training & dedication with saber spins & poses... attacks & defenses... general MA moves (kicks, punches, elbows, jumps)... paired choreo... and paired sparring.  Finally, somewhere in there... if you're "alone"... you have personal forms, which can actually contain actions present in all of the ones I just listed.

Granted... personal forms cannot prepare someone (much?) for something like sparring or staged/paired combat.  Mainly because you have to learn to work WITH others during such paired work, and... everyone is different!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOuCbDkKIs4

HAN'S MY MAN! :D

[DarthIgnis]

Just wanted to chime in and say that I love this term and will be adding "aspiring saber arts athlete" to all of my profiles from now on.

[Darth Cephalus]

This is an interesting thread. Thanks for making it Caine. I have to say I appreciate the inclusiveness of the term you have coined. I am a part of a few forums and I often find that when one talks about saber use, it often revolves around combat and dueling. When I say that that is not what I do, some assume the only other logical options are choreography, or failing that, just messing around.

So allow me to share my personal take on saber arts. I have a background in fencing, but that is not what I do with a saber. Rather I would call myself a flow artist or an object manipulator. I did not make these terms up; they reflect the interests of a subset of the juggling community, who I think qualify as saber athletes under your criteria.

I put a lot of work into what I do, but I focus on moving with the sabers and creating patterns and forms with them similar to the way a dancer creates forms with their body or with a prop. Striking or simulating believable combat is not my intent.

To get to where I am, I have drawn on the work of spinners (like baditjedi) and interpretive martial artists within the lightsaber community (particularly those who have tackled workable forms of Soresu). To a limited extent, I have drawn from some of the movements in Wushu as well. I have added these to a base that is more akin to juggling arts like poi spinning, devil sticks, club spinning, fire work, classical juggling, contact staff, and s-staff.

While certainly not a master and almost entirely self taught, I pride myself that I have taken this farther than most. I have a hundred or so videos on youtube and a few people who have found them helpful in their own work. Still, it is a lonely sub field with only a few of us treating it as a serious discipline. I still have a long way to go before I can do everything I want to be able to do. Along the way, I am happy to give pointers to or take pointers from like minded saber arts athletes. For that reason, I always set up a hub in the forums to which I belong called non-martial arts to attract and connect people interested in this pursuit and to collect resources to help them.

[DarthIgnis]

I get that man, I've been spinning poi for about 2 years now so I understand what you mean by flow. I find myself ending my training sessions with a little musically inclined free form saber spinning just to end on a fun note.

[Nero Attoru]

Good behind the scenes look at the choreo from the OT, thanks Novastar.  From what I've read, the original idea that Lucas had was that lightsabers were quite heavy, hence the two handed usage in ANH.  This idea that a lightsaber should be wielded with two hands just continued onward throughout the rest of the movies.  I always took the one handed usage in ESB to be a demonstration of Vader toying with Luke, easily deflecting his attacks with just one hand.

[Onli-Won Kanomi]

I just took a look at the fight scenes been a while and yep not fencing in any sense of the word probably just called  it that as I've read it before. closest thing is the old swash bucklers movies and pirate fights I previously mentioned.

as for Omni directional, well no they are not real and had carbon fibre rods in the sabers, so its just a sword fight in a movie like any other.

Since I was the one who originated the term "self renewing blade with omnidirectional edge of infinite sharpness" I'll clarify FYI that I was talking about what a REAL lightsaber blade WOULD be rather than what the CF rods used in the PT films or the polyc 'blades' used in our saber props actually are.

Lightsaber [or similar energy blade] combat WOULD be different from fighting with a MATTER sword though since they don't exist YET we can only guess how NOW...or make a few logical deductions tentatively pending future experimental falsification. For one thing a lightsaber cannot cut with the edge and parry with the flat because there is no flat - that would make it different from ANY matter blade and using it necessarily different as well...as a direct consequence of the edge being OMNIDIRECTIONAL in a way no real matter blade is. Lightsabers and their uses would differ from swords in other ways as well i.e. a self renewing blade moots many sword-breaking tactics.  Basically, lightsabers are not swords, they are [or rather would/will be if/when they exist] lightsabers - because the physics of energy blades would necessarily be different from matter sword blades. I hope that the intent of that terminology is clearer now?

Another consideration about lightsabers unmentioned directly in the films is that the lightsaber would be a specific engineering solution to a specific tactical problem; the emergence of precognitive telekinetic superbeings in a more advanced civilization than ours. Lightsabers really aren't necessary for 21st century humans - matter blades do quite well if/when tactically appropriate and we have other longer ranged solutions for when/where they aren't as well. We don't have the ability to telekinetically push against matter blades so we don't really need energy ones. We don't have the precognitive ability to absolutely accurately foresee an enemy's simple direct linear blade thrust so we don't really need elaborate spins or other complicating moves to confuse their ability to see several moves ahead by adding extra moves. Basically we aren't Jedi or Sith so we really don't need lightsabers as THEY WOULD. Which is another way with other implications for how superhumans [or super-aliens] would quite logically use lightsabers very differently than we mere humans use real swords or other blades implements.

Film/Stage combat choreography, martial arts [in this case Saber Arts Athlete] both Eastern and Western, and other aspects of this hobby are valid and important and worthy of study and I have GREAT RESPECT for the varied perspectives of fellow saber enthusiasts including those who have disciplined themselves to the study of real sword techniques and wish to apply their knowledge and expertise to what is perhaps the most awesome weapon in fiction.

Personally I may never be qualified to be a Saber Arts Athlete since I may not ever be physically fit enough to be any kind of athlete for various health reasons but that doesn't stop me from studying and practicing and trying to improve [Yoda there IS try] and continuing to learn from real aber art sathletes like Master Caine and from others in this hobby who are trying to contribute and as a 'mere Padawan' I thank you all for your efforts...BRAVO and Bon Chance to you all.

[Novastar]

Good behind the scenes look at the choreo from the OT, thanks Novastar.  From what I've read, the original idea that Lucas had was that lightsabers were quite heavy, hence the two handed usage in ANH.  This idea that a lightsaber should be wielded with two hands just continued onward throughout the rest of the movies.  I always took the one handed usage in ESB to be a demonstration of Vader toying with Luke, easily deflecting his attacks with just one hand.

Np, thank you.  And indeed, I'm not disagreeing that GL had it in his mind that the sabers were "heavy" in EP IV.  He got exactly that since he was directing, and could request whatever he liked!

Now... when Kirschner directed ESB and Hamill and Bob Anderson were working together, training, etc. -- they had some influence over GL to allow for some one-handed actions... from BOTH characters.  :)  I read some interviews, watched some as well (primarily with Hamill) which confirm all of this... multi-faceted consideration.

Luke uses one hand for a few moves... you can see some interesting stuff here:
ESB Live Show Comparison to Original EP V Film Footage - YouTube

So, it actually was quite complicated... I mean... you all have to understand that with filming fight scenes--a LOT of input is thrown around.  Director... Actors... Stunt Folks... Writer(s)... etc.

It could certainly be argued that Vader's character IS toying with Luke by using one hand... but... it's also up for debate as to whether that kind of distinction would have been present if Hamill and Anderson had not "brought one-handed actions" up... and had good old Kirsch sift through the idea, and (probably?) present it to George.

As a matter of note... Marquand (ROTJ) was a bit less... um... able to carry WEIGHT with GL.  Whether by his charisma (or lack of it??), or because GL knew he could get whatever he wanted, hands down, so...

...word around the campfire is... they went back to "2-handed only", and that was the end of that!  George got what he wanted!

Right?

Errrrrrrrrrr..... then 1999 came.  Prequels.  Begin confusion on "what he wanted", heheh!  :)

I'm sort of teasing, but... GL probably noted the growing popularity of none other than Jackie Chan, and generally "fast-paced, acrobatic, flashy" kung-fu, wu-shu style flicks... they ended up with a Wu Shu champion (Ray Park)... and the rest is history!  Sabers became "much lighter"...  I guess?

Either way... in the end, it's all staged/filmed combat, and a great many things enter the equation on how it all comes out of the editing room and onto the big screen!