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Author Topic: Here why lightsaber duels wouldn't work in real life  (Read 12227 times)

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Offline MoonDragn

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Re: Here why lightsaber duels wouldn't work in real life
« Reply #60 on: October 28, 2008, 08:52:07 AM »
Yeah a couple of weeks ago I went to this saber dueling club to learn some saber duels. I had asked one guy if he wanted to swing the saber around. After only two swings I clocked him in the head.

It doesn't matter how many fancy swings you do, all it takes is that one good one.

The problem with saber dueling is that its too theatrical, everything is choreographed and predictable. Which becomes just one big piece of showmanship and not really about fighting with a sword for real.

In a real fight every stroke counts, feints are never done to show off and you never turn your back to your opponent. You also never swing your sword in a predictable pattern like a figure 8. Its a good way to lose.




Funny I always turn my back to the enemy... Aikido and Iaido/Kenjutsu

Then your instructor wasn't doing his job. I know Aikido and I know they teach you not to turn your back.

As for Iaido, isn't that just a fast draw sword technique?

I've never studied Kenjutsu, but I have studied Tai-chi sword, sabre fencing, and modern arnis.


One you will never insult the honor of my sensei again! Ever, especially for something I say! Shino Nage along with Sankyo and other very basic (like 8 kyu Techniques you know when uke grabs your wrist and pushes you) have you turning your back to your opponent… and as for Iaido the are cuts that you turn your back to your opponent and draw backwards to trust forward

I didn't mean to insult your instructor, if I did so, I appologize. From the sound of it, those techniques are for the inevitable time when an opponent is already behind you, and you do not intentionally turn your back towards him. Even that technique where he grabs your wrist, he can't strike you because his hand is on your wrist.

The Iaido cuts also require special situations, like I said, intentionally turning your back to your opponent usually spells disaster.
Maybe this is one of those times where one argues the semantics of one style over another. But I happen to know that alot of Japanese Kata is mistaught to American students. Their underlying structure is missing a key concept that was not taught intentionally to an American student because they didn't want a stinking foreigner to learn their secrets.

Offline Firith Tar

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Re: Here why lightsaber duels wouldn't work in real life
« Reply #61 on: October 28, 2008, 03:31:20 PM »
Yeah a couple of weeks ago I went to this saber dueling club to learn some saber duels. I had asked one guy if he wanted to swing the saber around. After only two swings I clocked him in the head.

It doesn't matter how many fancy swings you do, all it takes is that one good one.

The problem with saber dueling is that its too theatrical, everything is choreographed and predictable. Which becomes just one big piece of showmanship and not really about fighting with a sword for real.

In a real fight every stroke counts, feints are never done to show off and you never turn your back to your opponent. You also never swing your sword in a predictable pattern like a figure 8. Its a good way to lose.




Funny I always turn my back to the enemy... Aikido and Iaido/Kenjutsu

Then your instructor wasn't doing his job. I know Aikido and I know they teach you not to turn your back.

As for Iaido, isn't that just a fast draw sword technique?

I've never studied Kenjutsu, but I have studied Tai-chi sword, sabre fencing, and modern arnis.


One you will never insult the honor of my sensei again! Ever, especially for something I say! Shino Nage along with Sankyo and other very basic (like 8 kyu Techniques you know when uke grabs your wrist and pushes you) have you turning your back to your opponent… and as for Iaido the are cuts that you turn your back to your opponent and draw backwards to trust forward

I didn't mean to insult your instructor, if I did so, I appologize. From the sound of it, those techniques are for the inevitable time when an opponent is already behind you, and you do not intentionally turn your back towards him. Even that technique where he grabs your wrist, he can't strike you because his hand is on your wrist.

The Iaido cuts also require special situations, like I said, intentionally turning your back to your opponent usually spells disaster.
Maybe this is one of those times where one argues the semantics of one style over another. But I happen to know that alot of Japanese Kata is mistaught to American students. Their underlying structure is missing a key concept that was not taught intentionally to an American student because they didn't want a stinking foreigner to learn their secrets.

Sorry to get defensive… just my sensei is a great teacher only 4 gen from our schools founder so I consider his technique very “pure” even if he think he is not that special and having Shioda Yasuhisa sensei come for one of our Kenshu was a real honor! Your knowledge seems vast as I only have an understanding of aikido, iaido, kenjutsu (I did kendo but didn’t really like it), Fencing (Epee and foil left it for the same reasons as kendo), and lastly traditional fencing (Longsword)... Always remember the soul of bushi lies not in the skin but the heart!
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Offline HAN SOLO

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Re: Here why lightsaber duels wouldn't work in real life
« Reply #62 on: October 29, 2008, 12:52:31 AM »
Well I happen to be Chinese. I grew up with the whole culture and have studied alot of different styles. I know a little bit of Karate, Tae Kwon do, Seven star Mantis, ba-qua Kungfu, American Black cat Kenpo, Akaido, Tensudo, and Jujitsu. The weapon styles I know are nunchuku and modern Arnis. I have also done sabre/epee/foil fencing and have fought heavy in the SCA.  My current instructor is also a bouncer at a local bar. Trust me he knows his stuff, and have applied his practical street fighting to the art of martial arts. He also adds an extra element to our classes, by introducing the concept of merdians and the proper element alignment of traditional katas. He has corrected alot of misconceptions I had in the past. For example, there are no blocks in those traditional Taekwondo katas. Those were meant to be strikes, and they were made safe by the school systems to prevent people from getting hurt. There are parallels in almost every style I've learned and the basics are, keep your elbows in, let the big muscles do the work of little muscles, Do the techniques correctly and your next option will open up for you, breath. There are basically two different ways to attack opponents. Soft and hard. Hard, like karate, force your way to break down the structure of an opponent, and when they are off balance, they will be vulnerable to your attack. Soft, like kungfu, targets all the vulnerable points on an opponent to achieve an advantage. Kungfu uses every part of your body as a weapon, and from an outsider, looks extremely dirty.

Sword styles are not that much different than hand to hand, except now you have range. But because everything starts at the shoulders, it is much easier to telegraph your moves to your opponents. So those spins may act as feints but to an opponent that knows what he is looking for, they may end up being extra waste of time and openings.

I have seen an effective kungfu sword technique that involves turning your back to the opponent, but it also requires that you stab through yourself to kill your opponent behind you.

You guys are right to state that it all depends on training position and timing. But you think in the heat of battle someone is going to worry about etiquet and not stab you in the kidneys when you turn your back? Good luck on that one.


I'll spell it out in layman's terms about "real life and death situations".........I am a cop in the nasty end of of were I work. And until you've had you life threatend with lethal force numerous times, don't tell me good luck. When the "Show" starts, you go where your body tells you to.

I've given you life experience that works in the "real world", were people turn a blind eye or you don't hear abvout it in real life. This also includes 6 years Light Infanteer with 1 and 3 RCR. If your lost about the Canadian RCR Battalions, look it up, you'll know what badass is about. Don't get me started on over 25 years of different Martial arts include a black belt and instructor. Let's not mention the Crackheads and "Biker Strikers" I've had to subdue without any weapons as a bouncer for 6 years, being threatened with death threats, well, you how to spin pretty xxx fast and move in and out of position, especially when they don't play by the rules. Unless you're a soldier who's served overseas or a cop, especially who work alone alot, like I have to most of the time, who are you to say that spinning doesn't work? There are Members here who've learned to spin in combat as they've had bullets wizzing by their heads or had baseball bats swung at them during fights or just in the wrong end of town. I've worked with Martial Artists who are and aren't the real deal, including myself being a "Real Life" Self-Defence Instructor utilizing Life and Death scenarios from dealing with psychos or more than one combatants at once. And I ain't talking teenage thugs or 20 some MMA Wannabes.

I got the life experience, including being in a tad too many strokes near death, to back my words. If you need to, I can photobucket the Badge and scars I proudly have earned, if you don't believe me. ::)

Can you? 8)


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Offline Akitoscorpio

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Re: Here why lightsaber duels wouldn't work in real life
« Reply #63 on: October 29, 2008, 12:54:49 AM »
Well I happen to be Chinese. I grew up with the whole culture and have studied alot of different styles. I know a little bit of Karate, Tae Kwon do, Seven star Mantis, ba-qua Kungfu, American Black cat Kenpo, Akaido, Tensudo, and Jujitsu. The weapon styles I know are nunchuku and modern Arnis. I have also done sabre/epee/foil fencing and have fought heavy in the SCA.  My current instructor is also a bouncer at a local bar. Trust me he knows his stuff, and have applied his practical street fighting to the art of martial arts. He also adds an extra element to our classes, by introducing the concept of merdians and the proper element alignment of traditional katas. He has corrected alot of misconceptions I had in the past. For example, there are no blocks in those traditional Taekwondo katas. Those were meant to be strikes, and they were made safe by the school systems to prevent people from getting hurt. There are parallels in almost every style I've learned and the basics are, keep your elbows in, let the big muscles do the work of little muscles, Do the techniques correctly and your next option will open up for you, breath. There are basically two different ways to attack opponents. Soft and hard. Hard, like karate, force your way to break down the structure of an opponent, and when they are off balance, they will be vulnerable to your attack. Soft, like kungfu, targets all the vulnerable points on an opponent to achieve an advantage. Kungfu uses every part of your body as a weapon, and from an outsider, looks extremely dirty.

Sword styles are not that much different than hand to hand, except now you have range. But because everything starts at the shoulders, it is much easier to telegraph your moves to your opponents. So those spins may act as feints but to an opponent that knows what he is looking for, they may end up being extra waste of time and openings.

I have seen an effective kungfu sword technique that involves turning your back to the opponent, but it also requires that you stab through yourself to kill your opponent behind you.

You guys are right to state that it all depends on training position and timing. But you think in the heat of battle someone is going to worry about etiquet and not stab you in the kidneys when you turn your back? Good luck on that one.


I'll spell it out in layman's terms about "real life and death situations".........I am a cop in the nasty end of of were I work. And until you've had you life threatend with lethal force numerous times, don't tell me good luck. When the "Show" starts, you go where your body tells you to.

I've given you life experience that works in the "real world", were people turn a blind eye or you don't hear abvout it in real life. This also includes 6 years Light Infanteer with 1 and 3 RCR. If your lost about the Canadian RCR Battalions, look it up, you'll know what badass is about. Don't get me started on over 25 years of different Martial arts include a black belt and instructor. Let's not mention the Crackheads and "Biker Strikers" I've had to subdue without any weapons as a bouncer for 6 years, being threatened with death threats, well, you how to spin pretty xxx fast and move in and out of position, especially when they don't play by the rules. Unless you're a soldier who's served overseas or a cop, especially who work alone alot, like I have to most of the time, who are you to say that spinning doesn't work? There are Members here who've learned to spin in combat as they've had bullets wizzing by their heads or had baseball bats swung at them during fights or just in the wrong end of town. I've worked with Martial Artists who are and aren't the real deal, including myself being a "Real Life" Self-Defence Instructor utilizing Life and Death scenarios from dealing with psychos or more than one combatants at once. And I ain't talking teenage thugs or 20 some MMA Wannabes.

I got the life experience, including being in a tad too many strokes near death, to back my words. If you need to, I can photobucket the Badge and scars I proudly have earned, if you don't believe me. ::)

Can you? 8)

Sooooo..... Your urine is made out of pure excellence?
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Offline HAN SOLO

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Re: Here why lightsaber duels wouldn't work in real life
« Reply #64 on: October 29, 2008, 12:59:20 AM »
Well I happen to be Chinese. I grew up with the whole culture and have studied alot of different styles. I know a little bit of Karate, Tae Kwon do, Seven star Mantis, ba-qua Kungfu, American Black cat Kenpo, Akaido, Tensudo, and Jujitsu. The weapon styles I know are nunchuku and modern Arnis. I have also done sabre/epee/foil fencing and have fought heavy in the SCA.  My current instructor is also a bouncer at a local bar. Trust me he knows his stuff, and have applied his practical street fighting to the art of martial arts. He also adds an extra element to our classes, by introducing the concept of merdians and the proper element alignment of traditional katas. He has corrected alot of misconceptions I had in the past. For example, there are no blocks in those traditional Taekwondo katas. Those were meant to be strikes, and they were made safe by the school systems to prevent people from getting hurt. There are parallels in almost every style I've learned and the basics are, keep your elbows in, let the big muscles do the work of little muscles, Do the techniques correctly and your next option will open up for you, breath. There are basically two different ways to attack opponents. Soft and hard. Hard, like karate, force your way to break down the structure of an opponent, and when they are off balance, they will be vulnerable to your attack. Soft, like kungfu, targets all the vulnerable points on an opponent to achieve an advantage. Kungfu uses every part of your body as a weapon, and from an outsider, looks extremely dirty.

Sword styles are not that much different than hand to hand, except now you have range. But because everything starts at the shoulders, it is much easier to telegraph your moves to your opponents. So those spins may act as feints but to an opponent that knows what he is looking for, they may end up being extra waste of time and openings.

I have seen an effective kungfu sword technique that involves turning your back to the opponent, but it also requires that you stab through yourself to kill your opponent behind you.

You guys are right to state that it all depends on training position and timing. But you think in the heat of battle someone is going to worry about etiquet and not stab you in the kidneys when you turn your back? Good luck on that one.


I'll spell it out in layman's terms about "real life and death situations".........I am a cop in the nasty end of of were I work. And until you've had you life threatend with lethal force numerous times, don't tell me good luck. When the "Show" starts, you go where your body tells you to.

I've given you life experience that works in the "real world", were people turn a blind eye or you don't hear abvout it in real life. This also includes 6 years Light Infanteer with 1 and 3 RCR. If your lost about the Canadian RCR Battalions, look it up, you'll know what badass is about. Don't get me started on over 25 years of different Martial arts include a black belt and instructor. Let's not mention the Crackheads and "Biker Strikers" I've had to subdue without any weapons as a bouncer for 6 years, being threatened with death threats, well, you how to spin pretty xxx fast and move in and out of position, especially when they don't play by the rules. Unless you're a soldier who's served overseas or a cop, especially who work alone alot, like I have to most of the time, who are you to say that spinning doesn't work? There are Members here who've learned to spin in combat as they've had bullets wizzing by their heads or had baseball bats swung at them during fights or just in the wrong end of town. I've worked with Martial Artists who are and aren't the real deal, including myself being a "Real Life" Self-Defence Instructor utilizing Life and Death scenarios from dealing with psychos or more than one combatants at once. And I ain't talking teenage thugs or 20 some MMA Wannabes.

I got the life experience, including being in a tad too many strokes near death, to back my words. If you need to, I can photobucket the Badge and scars I proudly have earned, if you don't believe me. ::)

Can you? 8)

Sooooo..... Your urine is made out of pure excellence?

Excuse me? You got something to say, say it now.


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More to follow.........

Offline Akitoscorpio

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Re: Here why lightsaber duels wouldn't work in real life
« Reply #65 on: October 29, 2008, 01:00:37 AM »
Well I happen to be Chinese. I grew up with the whole culture and have studied alot of different styles. I know a little bit of Karate, Tae Kwon do, Seven star Mantis, ba-qua Kungfu, American Black cat Kenpo, Akaido, Tensudo, and Jujitsu. The weapon styles I know are nunchuku and modern Arnis. I have also done sabre/epee/foil fencing and have fought heavy in the SCA.  My current instructor is also a bouncer at a local bar. Trust me he knows his stuff, and have applied his practical street fighting to the art of martial arts. He also adds an extra element to our classes, by introducing the concept of merdians and the proper element alignment of traditional katas. He has corrected alot of misconceptions I had in the past. For example, there are no blocks in those traditional Taekwondo katas. Those were meant to be strikes, and they were made safe by the school systems to prevent people from getting hurt. There are parallels in almost every style I've learned and the basics are, keep your elbows in, let the big muscles do the work of little muscles, Do the techniques correctly and your next option will open up for you, breath. There are basically two different ways to attack opponents. Soft and hard. Hard, like karate, force your way to break down the structure of an opponent, and when they are off balance, they will be vulnerable to your attack. Soft, like kungfu, targets all the vulnerable points on an opponent to achieve an advantage. Kungfu uses every part of your body as a weapon, and from an outsider, looks extremely dirty.

Sword styles are not that much different than hand to hand, except now you have range. But because everything starts at the shoulders, it is much easier to telegraph your moves to your opponents. So those spins may act as feints but to an opponent that knows what he is looking for, they may end up being extra waste of time and openings.

I have seen an effective kungfu sword technique that involves turning your back to the opponent, but it also requires that you stab through yourself to kill your opponent behind you.

You guys are right to state that it all depends on training position and timing. But you think in the heat of battle someone is going to worry about etiquet and not stab you in the kidneys when you turn your back? Good luck on that one.


I'll spell it out in layman's terms about "real life and death situations".........I am a cop in the nasty end of of were I work. And until you've had you life threatend with lethal force numerous times, don't tell me good luck. When the "Show" starts, you go where your body tells you to.

I've given you life experience that works in the "real world", were people turn a blind eye or you don't hear abvout it in real life. This also includes 6 years Light Infanteer with 1 and 3 RCR. If your lost about the Canadian RCR Battalions, look it up, you'll know what badass is about. Don't get me started on over 25 years of different Martial arts include a black belt and instructor. Let's not mention the Crackheads and "Biker Strikers" I've had to subdue without any weapons as a bouncer for 6 years, being threatened with death threats, well, you how to spin pretty xxx fast and move in and out of position, especially when they don't play by the rules. Unless you're a soldier who's served overseas or a cop, especially who work alone alot, like I have to most of the time, who are you to say that spinning doesn't work? There are Members here who've learned to spin in combat as they've had bullets wizzing by their heads or had baseball bats swung at them during fights or just in the wrong end of town. I've worked with Martial Artists who are and aren't the real deal, including myself being a "Real Life" Self-Defence Instructor utilizing Life and Death scenarios from dealing with psychos or more than one combatants at once. And I ain't talking teenage thugs or 20 some MMA Wannabes.

I got the life experience, including being in a tad too many strokes near death, to back my words. If you need to, I can photobucket the Badge and scars I proudly have earned, if you don't believe me. ::)

Can you? 8)

Sooooo..... Your urine is made out of pure excellence?

Excuse me? You got something to say, say it now.

No not really I actually ment that as a compliment. Though allot of people seem to be butting heads in this particular topic.
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Offline HAN SOLO

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Re: Here why lightsaber duels wouldn't work in real life
« Reply #66 on: October 29, 2008, 01:17:50 AM »
OK, I over-reacted to your compliment. :-\

I can't read these these posts' manner behind them as so many Members are taking slight pot-shots at responses lately, especially Mods. (Probably the UltraSound V. 2 Anticipation ???)

My post was harsh, yes, but there are so many people out their, bragging about how they have this all-knowing experience and then tell those who actually do have it that they don't know what they post. I think for my sake, I am gonna just monitor this Topic. 8)

But for now, I need to take a long step away from this one. I think that I allowing too many personal issues right now creep into my posts here.

Man, I need to stop these 20 hour days. ::)
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 01:32:49 AM by HAN SOLO »


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Offline MoonDragn

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Re: Here why lightsaber duels wouldn't work in real life
« Reply #67 on: October 29, 2008, 10:23:37 AM »
I never said spinning doesn't work. I said it was good for feints and transitioning to a new position. I never said it did not work.

I was talking about spinning your body, turning your back to your opponent.

You can't honestly tell me that in all of your years in "combat" situations that you've never took advantage of someone turning his back to you trying to make some fancy move? I admit I don't have street battle experience, but come on, you can't tell me you would intentionally do that in a fight with an opponent that knew what he was doing.

Offline Darth Raijlin

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Re: Here why lightsaber duels wouldn't work in real life
« Reply #68 on: November 02, 2008, 08:00:24 AM »
Perhaps you just are not fast enough in your "transitioning period" to take advantage of the situation to use economy of motion and effectually implement the use of a "spinning move".

I find your lack of faith disturbing...and yes, this IS from someone who has used a "spinning move" here or there, both in the civilian sector before the Marine Corps, during the Marine Corps in various....areas....around the world...and as a cop after the Marine Corps.

Perhaps you need to go back and learn some more of your various systems and further enhance and develop your personal style Moon.   ;)

I suggest before you assume that something wouldn't work, you expand your horizons a little.   as we learned in the Corps...assuming...well...yeah...it makes an xxx out of people. ;)
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 08:01:55 AM by DARTH VADER »

Offline MoonDragn

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Re: Here why lightsaber duels wouldn't work in real life
« Reply #69 on: November 02, 2008, 12:53:32 PM »
Perhaps you just are not fast enough in your "transitioning period" to take advantage of the situation to use economy of motion and effectually implement the use of a "spinning move".

I find your lack of faith disturbing...and yes, this IS from someone who has used a "spinning move" here or there, both in the civilian sector before the Marine Corps, during the Marine Corps in various....areas....around the world...and as a cop after the Marine Corps.

Perhaps you need to go back and learn some more of your various systems and further enhance and develop your personal style Moon.   ;)

I suggest before you assume that something wouldn't work, you expand your horizons a little.   as we learned in the Corps...assuming...well...yeah...it makes an xxx out of people. ;)

Not assuming. I'm telling you that it is a possible flaw in a technique. You can chose not to believe me as you obviously have all these years of experience to see it "work". It isn't important. Just telling you that its not the BEST technique to use. There are much better techniques out there that does not require you to turn your back.

Offline darthmorbius

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Re: Here why lightsaber duels wouldn't work in real life
« Reply #70 on: November 02, 2008, 12:58:34 PM »
Okay Smart guy... Topic Locked.

Vader, Please post as you see fit in response, ;D

This discussion is beating a dead horse, as it has been discussed in the past.

MoonDragn, there is no point in continuing this because you are basically re-posting, and we are well aware of your stance... Frankly it seems that you are doing this in OTHER topics as well if I am not mistaken. ;)

I don't mean to sound harsh here, but Vader and others have made VERY valid points, as well as you.  But I am going to call it as I see it here as total crap that you continually feel that you have to down-play every single thing that is discussed, just because you seem to have this superiority complex.

Just because I haven't been posting much lately, does not mean that I do not READ these topics.

If there is no offense meant in your postings, then maybe it would be advisable to use a smiley or other emoticon to help convey the intent of your phrasing.  Things can be taken at face value in a forum environment, and truthfully; YOURS can be taken as insinuation of malice.  :-\

In the future, perhaps a little more tact might fare you well.  ;)

MODS, please feel free to unlock this as you see fit. I just want a cool off period here.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 01:06:38 PM by DARTH TYRANUS »

Offline Darth Raijlin

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Re: Here why lightsaber duels wouldn't work in real life
« Reply #71 on: November 02, 2008, 01:19:19 PM »
No, you did fine DT my brother.  Vader must be on his happy pills today  :D

I'll let Johnny Hardcore think he knows everything about anything.   ;)

 

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