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Dueling Society => Dueling with your Lightsaber => Topic started by: Akitoscorpio on October 27, 2008, 01:31:33 PM

Title: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: Akitoscorpio on October 27, 2008, 01:31:33 PM
Okay so Me and my roommates all fancy ourselves to be pretty tough SOB's, We Offer fight in tee-shirts and jeans and normally will quit when were too tried or sore form to many wrist and joint hits to continue, that being said were both planing on ordering Ultra-sabers (actually mine's in processing right now) and now we decided that were not manly enough to be beating the xxx out of each other with polycarbonate glowing sticks with out some kind of protection..

Now I was thinking for honest hard sparing some sparing armor used in martial arts would work, but that's kinda pricey for our budgets. But at the same time I really don't want to risk a swing getting deflected into his face and hurting my sparing partner severely. Or even taking a hand out as we have a bad habit of hitting our wrists and fingers.

any recommendations

http://www.karatesupply.com/Sparring-Gear_c_14.html (http://www.karatesupply.com/Sparring-Gear_c_14.html) <---- What I'm looking at right now.
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dualing?
Post by: Master Dru-Er on October 27, 2008, 03:20:56 PM
Sounds to me that you could save alotta money by choreographing and speeding up.  It'll make you a better saber weilder and you guys have a much better chance of not getting hurt.
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dualing?
Post by: Akitoscorpio on October 27, 2008, 04:56:37 PM
Yeah But my understanding is that choreographing is not the same as dualing, which is mostly what were aiming for, I mean we mostly are used to full contact sparing with our boffers. Hence protection.
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: darthmorbius on October 27, 2008, 05:08:32 PM
http://www.sca.org

GO look at their minimum protection requirements.

http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/armored/marshal_handbook.pdf
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: Akitoscorpio on October 27, 2008, 05:15:33 PM
That is fantastically in depth, Thanks for the Information Darth Tyranus. So your going to go ahead and suggest this for bare minimum requirements?
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: darthmorbius on October 27, 2008, 05:28:31 PM
Sorry I edited my post with the PDF for the requirements of SCA style combat.

You would have to modify it to suite your needs.

However, you need to follow those guidelines CAREFULLY. Injuries can happen, and most likely will.  The problem is finding a way to make that style of armor fit the needs of SW related combat.

There are a few Scadians hereon the forums.

Darth Vader was toying with the idea for a while.  I don't know where he stands on it right now, but he had some really good ideas.  There is a topic about it here on the forums someplace.  I forget where. a search should turn it up easily enough though.
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: Akitoscorpio on October 27, 2008, 05:29:59 PM
Yeah Because I think SCA heavy fighting armor might be a tad overkill, I somehow don't think were going to be hitting each other hard enough to break the blades off.
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: darthmorbius on October 27, 2008, 05:33:50 PM
Yes but the minimum protection requirements for the areas of the body that are most vulnerable are HIGHLY recommended.

Head, Neck, ribs, kidneys, groin knees...etc

Better safe than Vegetable...
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: Akitoscorpio on October 27, 2008, 05:36:17 PM
Okay well that I agree with you one, and I'll look into a basically non hard sparing armor set up, and get back to you :)
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: darthmorbius on October 27, 2008, 05:41:59 PM
How about looking into the safe target areas and proper chreography FIRST?  The more you know how to pull blows, and choreograph your movements, the better you will be off for it. Safety is what we are about here. not splitting skulls.

If you want more contact, then Join the SCA, and go to get authorized to fight at events. it's that simple.
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: Akitoscorpio on October 27, 2008, 11:48:47 PM
Forgive me for saying this, but both my Roomate and I have been boffering for years without body protection, and we have never once swung to hard or seriously injured each other unless we slip or hit each other in a spot that might of been sore from something work related.... And I personally have a couple years of Kendo under my belt as well. Untill we get armor at the worst were thinking of tap fighting, choreographing, spin practice or the types of restraining maneuvers we see on the tutorial videos of always keeping your hand  as a fist pointed at your partner..

My partner is also an EX SCA member and is the son of a champion fencer who made it into the trials for the olympics in the late 1960's

So we are hardly rank Amateurs by any means, were just not going to be teaching and classes anytime soon.

That being said so far the best bet were thinking of is Lacross padding, there certified to withstand a ball being flung into you at over 100 miles per hour or being struck repeatedly by a metal lacross staff, so I think and sabers we whack aganst them would not inflict massive damage... that would protect every where but the necks which were considering Motorcycling Neck braces, the kind you should wear when your riding a crotch rocket and restricts your neck movement, it should provide the protection for your neck area and keep your head from being batted around quite abit when the occasional botched swing gets you in the head.

The irony is that some of the better idea's for protect your wrist came from a very non combative sport. Bowling.... See I do bowl on occasion and I work at a center up here, so you see what the pro's use on the lanes, and you can actually buy a hard metal wrist brace that, while designed to keep your wrist from bending to far back which is a plus so you don't overextend your wrists swinging, also is hard metal so they can take saber hits well, the only potential downside I can think of is you would not be able to spin your saber for a xxx, but it's not a bad idea overall. My roommate is personally thinking of The Full Lacross Guardsmen Vambrace because of the same reasons Were thinking of of Lacross Chest, Shoulder, Shin, and Groin protection...

Okay Why sugar coat it, were basically planing on shopping for the gear from the only truly armored competitive sports that comes to mind.

A good alternitive for face protection would be of course a fencing or kendo helm, the Kendo helm being the best, but in a budget pinch I'm pretty sure a Hockey Goalies mask, or a Catchers  face mask could do in a pinch...

While I agree the SCA is awesome as an organization, it's not honestly an option for us as we generaly lack the transportation to get out to events, the reason my roomate is an EX member, and the last local event I went to didn't inspire me to make a second outing for reasons I won't discuss.  Also well were poor so were thinking budget options for protection via sports gear that well is affordable.
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: HAN SOLO on October 28, 2008, 12:07:10 AM
Yeah, you won't find inexpensive gear, even to make it. I just spent over $200 on materials to make Samurai Armour that is light duel ready. Hockey Equipment will cost you an arm and a leg, as does Kendo Gear. Real Samurai Armour, HA! Minimum $1500-$2000 for competitive Armour.

Best bet, especially hockey gear, look at a local used sports equipment shop.

Good luck. 8)
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: Akitoscorpio on October 28, 2008, 12:09:17 AM
Ebay is a great option as well :)
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: HAN SOLO on October 28, 2008, 12:11:38 AM
Ebay is a great option as well :)

Yeah, eBay is not bad. But I never got hockey equipment there. Look for older hockey equipment. The new stuff is bigger and bulkier.
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: Ebon on October 28, 2008, 06:02:30 AM
If you use the lighter weight blades, they will hold up just fine for the most part and they really don't have the mass to do more than bruise or cause some red knuckles (which can be fixed by learning to block with the blade and not your hands).  We have been using 3 weapon fencing masks and heavy bag gloves (kind of like the MMA gloves) with little more than a sore finger from time to time.  Honestly, the worst shot I ever got, going full speed with a guy with no formal training, was a thrust to the gut, which wasn't all that bad as long as they don't lock their elbow. 

We have found that "pulling" shots with something that will flex like polyC, actually causes more pain that a regular strike since it whips at the end and can sting a good bit.

SCA rules tend to slip toward the caution side, but they are also made for people using fairly weighty rattan sticks instead of lightweight plastic tubes.  Thats one of the reasons I stopped Heavy fighting in SCA, the armor was so stifling it wasn't that much fun for me.  That and I like to slice at the ankles from time to time ;D

Ebon


Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: Akitoscorpio on October 28, 2008, 09:56:43 AM
Well Yeah that is true Fencing masks would go a long way, and in hindsight Lacross armor us starting to look like overkill, And it's not looking as cheep as I first thought it would be. So Body protection is looking more and more like a long term goal. I might just looking into fencing masks at those gloves like you suggested.
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: MoonDragn on October 28, 2008, 11:31:17 AM
I'm part of the SCA as well and I use stainless steel armor. But that is definately overkill for polycarbonate blades. In the SCA we use swords made out of Retan with barely any padding on it and a thrusting tip with 1 inch foam.

It really depends on how hard you are hitting each other. If you are hitting each other hard enough to be needing steel armor, you're gonna break your sabers first.

Look into some fencing gear and buy a gorget. That would be the most important thing you need as your neck is the most vulnerable spot that can be fatal if hit. That fencing mask will be sufficient to block most of the saber hits unless you clobber each other from behind.

The fencing clothes is just thick padded canvas usually. You could probably just get away with thick jackets with sweaters underneith.

The vulnerable spots are the elbows and knees. Get some elbow and knee pads from somewhere cheap like Ollies and you guys should be all set.

Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: Akitoscorpio on October 28, 2008, 12:08:38 PM
Well I do have to be a tad worried about protection my roommate on occasion gets in the slightly bad habit of forgetting that he's not suppose to be trying to murder me with his Boffer, I just make it a habit of not sparing him after he gets home from work.
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: MoonDragn on October 28, 2008, 12:28:38 PM
At one point in my life I did alot of boffer weapon fighting in a live action role playing group called Laire.

If you built your boffers correctly you can hit each other pretty hard with them without really getting hurt. provided you don't hit each other in the face etc.

Lightsabers are a different story. Most of them are built with the polycarbonate blades and its like getting hit with the pvc pipe without the foam insulation on the boffer.

Btw, talking about boffers, I got this super nasty looking boffer Axe I made when I was in that group. It still looks to be in good shape after all these years. Getting hit with this thing is like getting hit with a nerf bat.
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: Akitoscorpio on October 28, 2008, 12:31:27 PM
Well My roommate who made all the boffers tried to make them as close to the real weapons there suppose to be's weight and proportions, which makes that Two handed "Zweihander" he owns a scary scary thing to stare down... Yeah if we don't pull with those, they *hurt* Give me few minutes and I'll go take a picture of them for you guys.

Edit: And here's teh pictures, the fat bearded guy is me, the skinny reformed crack head is my roomate.

(https://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg411.imageshack.us%2Fimg411%2F8310%2F10280812342900769292023ii9.jpg&hash=b0452d26e3699be48996389fe0cfc57b74667744) (http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10280812342900769292023ii9.jpg)

(https://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg293.imageshack.us%2Fimg293%2F5056%2F1028081236a312573131361qq6.th.jpg&hash=45b8ffe327b64624b7f1f86f31a8a992ca754d96) (http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1028081236a312573131361qq6.jpg)(https://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg293.imageshack.us%2Fimages%2Fthpix.gif&hash=6f9edfea8a04cfde554fe1d1e8edd1f3766be3d6) (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

(https://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg207.imageshack.us%2Fimg207%2F1922%2F10280812363221534322880yl8.th.jpg&hash=0e6b9f5fcf469fd923c5449873f84cc7aee0cc9b) (http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10280812363221534322880yl8.jpg)(https://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg207.imageshack.us%2Fimages%2Fthpix.gif&hash=3a8f87a936d41d64bd1193ef174fb381e3dc8a49) (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: Lazer Rob on October 28, 2008, 07:37:44 PM
When I started out in the SCA armor was a helm, hockey gloves, elbow and knee pads, and a cup.  If you're dueling with your friends, with poly blades, you're probably not going to need more than that.  A nice padded jacket maybe.  When something gets hit enough to hurt, put new armor on it!

Just remember, a little common sense and playing nicely is your best protection.

Lazer Rob
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: Ebon on October 29, 2008, 07:13:40 AM
We do the same thing with the padded weapons I make.  Rubberrized foam for the shape over a polypropelene pipe (those things will take a BEATING!) and a layer of soft foam down the edges.  We put 9-12 inch carriage bolts in the handles to make the weight more close to the originals...my scimitar weighs in at right between 2-3 lbs. and has a nice blade shaped cross section so none of those cinder block size blades :)

We use the fencing masks (which require retapping the weapons occasionally to repair rips) and gloves, but we go full body targets and any hit beyond a slight tip counts...the dual layer foam really cushions the hit alot but we still focus ono technique more than power since too much power can leave you open when you are trying to stop the swing from a realistically weighted weapon.

I tryed some of the LARP boffers at a con this year and they really feel waaaay too light to have any kind of realistic techniques imho.

Ebon
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: The Rebel on October 29, 2008, 07:35:17 AM
We do the same thing with the padded weapons I make.  Rubberrized foam for the shape over a polypropelene pipe (those things will take a BEATING!) and a layer of soft foam down the edges.  We put 9-12 inch carriage bolts in the handles to make the weight more close to the originals...my scimitar weighs in at right between 2-3 lbs. and has a nice blade shaped cross section so none of those cinder block size blades :)

We use the fencing masks (which require retapping the weapons occasionally to repair rips) and gloves, but we go full body targets and any hit beyond a slight tip counts...the dual layer foam really cushions the hit alot but we still focus ono technique more than power since too much power can leave you open when you are trying to stop the swing from a realistically weighted weapon.

I tryed some of the LARP boffers at a con this year and they really feel waaaay too light to have any kind of realistic techniques imho.

Ebon

I really wish I could fight regularly. I don't think there's one person at my college who's as big of a SW nerd as I am. LOL!
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: Ebon on October 29, 2008, 07:58:31 AM
Oh I dont get to fight near as much as I would like to... :/

Here is an old video of the first prototype of the "boffer" sword I made based on (one of the many) Greek Kopis style blades and using hoplon style steel shields.  (Im the one with no sleeves and the newer blade...as you can see at the end when the old style we were using loses a tip).  The newer blades are larger and more hearty, but still require regular maintenance when using with intensity.

Quality isn't that good, but you can see how well they work as far as not hurting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0jARZFx6UQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0jARZFx6UQ)

and he was hungover so...I used the time to try some goofy moves :D


Ebon
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: The Rebel on October 29, 2008, 09:06:03 AM
My friends and I tried dueling with the hard plastic extending lightsabers... at night... needless to say, it was very hard to see. I took a thrust to the throat in one fight, and I was pretty much done with that. LOL

Most of my friends are either too jittery or idiotic when we fight. One guy won't stop shaking and smacking everything as hard as he can, and one guy slides all over the ground and spins around like he's trying to breakdance or something. So far, I've only had one friend that I could work with as far as choreography goes. XD
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: Akitoscorpio on October 29, 2008, 10:42:46 AM
My friends and I tried dueling with the hard plastic extending lightsabers... at night... needless to say, it was very hard to see. I took a thrust to the throat in one fight, and I was pretty much done with that. LOL

Most of my friends are either too jittery or idiotic when we fight. One guy won't stop shaking and smacking everything as hard as he can, and one guy slides all over the ground and spins around like he's trying to breakdance or something. So far, I've only had one friend that I could work with as far as choreography goes. XD

Oh my god I know how that works, Half the time the people we Boffer aganst Disallow and swings that are not from the wrist or have a larger swing arc than 90 Degrees, and xxx because or are boffers are to heavy, even though we use heavy PVC pipe and foam, just thicker PVC that you would normally eexpect to get the proper weight.

I actually said once "Really you boffer but your such a wuss that you can't even properly swing a 4 pound sword?"

Overall most of the boffering around here boils down to furious stick waggling.
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: Ebon on October 29, 2008, 10:52:57 AM
Most people I have sparred with were very jittery until they were hit a few times and realized they would be just fine after the sting goes away, then the jitters tends to fade out...then comes trying to keep from blinking everytime someone swings at you...that one was tough to break at first.  Alot of the calm control just comes with experience, adrenaline can make someone into a quivering wreak if they can't control it.  Even professional fighters get the shakes sometimes.

My buddy and I didn't wear head gear when we started using paddeds, until I caught a flat edge across the ear and busted my eardrum...we decided looking tough can take a backseat to protecting the dainty bits after that.  We kept fighting for a while after that anyways and I just thought ..."well, I didn't make the block, that was my responsibility to defend...He really showed me where my defense was weak"

Pain has a way of letting us know when we aren't doing something right and the fear factor that comes with a sting can make you respect the need to develop proper defenses.   ::)

We have only two rules in my yard, control your temper and honor your opponent.

Ebon





Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: Goodman on November 28, 2008, 09:23:31 PM
We have only two rules in my yard, control your temper and honor your opponent.

What about the third rule:
"Crush your enemy totally" ?  lol
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: MoonDragn on December 02, 2008, 08:42:49 AM
Seems even when you are careful you still can get hurt. The other day I was in my Modern Arnis class and I got rapped in the knuckles by the other guy I was just doing drills with. He wasn't even going full speed but it left a nasty bruise.

We use the hardened retan sticks in Arnis, maybe I should start wearing gloves.
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: darthtater on December 02, 2008, 10:43:00 AM
As was previously stated you should cover vulnerable spots like the head, knees and elbows, kidneys, neck, and of course the groin. Thats all i used in the sca. You'l get some good welts but as long as the v spots are covered well you should have no problems.
Title: Re: Armor recomendations for Dueling?
Post by: MoonDragn on December 02, 2008, 10:50:39 AM
As was previously stated you should cover vulnerable spots like the head, knees and elbows, kidneys, neck, and of course the groin. Thats all i used in the sca. You'l get some good welts but as long as the v spots are covered well you should have no problems.

LOL you must not be anywhere near the Kingdom of Atlantia. They are a bunch of rhinohides down here so either they have too much armor on or have developed iron skin.