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Outer Rim => General Discussions - SW => Topic started by: Darth Chasm on April 07, 2018, 03:22:58 PM

Title: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: Darth Chasm on April 07, 2018, 03:22:58 PM
I’ll preface this with the following:

Please be civil, mature, and mind the forum rules. This should be an intelligent conversation.

———————-

Ok, now that that’s out of the way. We’ve seen a great influx of newcomers in the hobby over the past few years. Heck I was probably one of the ones in the first wave. The term “sabersmith” comes up a lot. Especially in FB groups. I think it’s used a little too loosely in my opinion. And people using it don’t really know the difference between a smith and non Smith.

So what are your thoughts? What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith? Can a non pro (hobbyist) be considered a smith? Or is that reserved for the pros (full-time job to feed the fam). Can a smith be an installer and not a fabricator or vice versa?

Let’s hear what you have to say. Remember keep it to discussion only. No flaming, bashing, arguing. If it’s starts to go astray,I’ll request the mods to lock faster than Rey learned how to use the Jedi mind trick.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: Jediseth on April 07, 2018, 05:10:41 PM
I see this hasn’t been responded to and it’s been some time so I will.
 I feel like a real smith needs to produce his own hilts from raw tubing and sell his sabers. An installer is just that.  Solo’s Hold is a Smith. I won’t feel like a Smith until I get to that point. MHS builds, not really. I can see myself getting there and becoming a Smith.  This is only my seventh month playing with this stuff so I’m not there yet, but I will.  I guess the term is really up to interpretation, but that’s what I think.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: jbkuma on April 07, 2018, 05:34:31 PM
There's arts and crafts and then there's art, and there may be a blurry line somewhere in there but in most case it's pretty clear. There's also nothing wrong with that. Everyone should enjoy the hobby to its fullest.

Ground floor is at least shaping metal and/or writing code.  Smithing implies a high level of artistry and craftsmanship. Volume isn't really a factor to me, bulk production is something else.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: Darth Chasm on April 07, 2018, 06:17:20 PM
I didn’t really say what I thought :)

I think originally it was a title given to those that proved themselves in several different aspects or sabering awesomeness including research, design, development, artistry, technique/craftsmanship, wiring, safety, customer service and so on.

In my mind that still holds true

 Let’s keep it going. Maybe some of the long timers can chime in with some education for us younglings.

Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: bombarta on April 07, 2018, 06:22:33 PM
What Aaron/SH does right now is manufacture in bulk as does Korbanth and a few others although Korbanth doesn't di the machining like Aaron. And Aaron would be the first to say that's not smithing, Aaron is a trained machinist who knows his CAD from his elbow, Smithing is what Aaron/SH did when he first become prominent and he moved away from it as it's so time consuming, but he's always beeen a machinist and will be even if he stops doing saber runs. Harp, RO, Greenie, and people that do one off sabers, they are Smith's as they create, although I would term Harp more like an artisan than a smith.
Installers are installers, just because you can drill a hole for a blade retention screw, tap a thread and use a 3D printed chassis designed by someone else and purchased from Shapeways doesn't make you a smith.
Designing, and making from scratch even if it is mhs is a smith, be that part time or taking commissions for it. And there's nothing wrong with using MHS either it's quality tubing and material, plus once you put it under a mill or on a lathe it then becomes custom and a one off plus you've saved a ton of time getting a perfect surface and boring it out, and saved a ton of electricity too.

This was a commission and a one off from scratch using MHS parts and took a lot of work by hand and on my lathe. So I'd say deffinatly smithed.

Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: K-2SO on April 07, 2018, 06:30:59 PM
Lecture time...

A “Sabersmith” is a person who is good at designing, creating and competently installing electronics into said designed hilt.

A Sabersmith DOES NOT NEED to be able to create something from raw material or tubes (I.e. need a lathe, mill, etc). Several excellent Sabersmiths have and may still use MHS stuff as their “base”, and that is perfectly fine. The fact that you may not recognize the pieces once the hilts are done are a testament to the individuals “artistry”..

Jbkuma is right that volume isn’t necessary to become a Sabersmith, I happen to know a few excellent Sabersmiths, who don’t build much, or build for profit, but have both won multiple awards and contests. People have seen their work and gawked appropriately (and yes, their works are posted here on the forums). However, one name is fairly well known, while the other is not (partially by choice). And I (and several others) also know who actually coined the term Sabersmith way back when.

An installer is basically someone who will put electronics into any of the myriad of empty hilts floating around out there like (Korbanth’s and others). Conversions also fall into this category in my view, because barring any major metalwork, it’s just a gut and re-install.

To echo what Bombarta said, Solos Hold is classified as a “machinist/manufacturer”. He basically machines empties and others do the installations, which is fine,

Yes, there are many people who crop up on FB and hang their shingle, because that is the easiest way to do it. But if someone is going to be serious, and wants to be taken seriously in this hobby, they have to put in the work, and Build their reputations.

What most don’t know, and/or probably don’t realize is that most of the OG Sabersmiths and a few others all know each other in real life and have for many years. We all watch, take notes, trade notes, etc. and periodically discuss people as necessary. The SABER GUILD here was established by several people to help establish standards or quality and conduct for future Sabersmiths to follow and aspire to. Membership to The Mining Colony is usually the first step on that road.

People think that because they hang their shingle up on FB, they’re just as good as anyone else, and that couldn’t be further from the truth. The saber community is a bit like a video game, there are several levels, INCLUDING some that fairly few know of. Those who really read and try to learn the hobby’s history may eventually stumble across clues to the levels of which I refer to. Like everything else, there are grey areas, and subtle differences but this is the general way of things.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: Jediseth on April 07, 2018, 06:32:54 PM
Well that’s why I’m a newbie. I guess I’m wrong, I’m a Smith.  😊 I do know one thing I’m an artist rather or not that pertains to sabers is debatable. 
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: K-2SO on April 07, 2018, 06:37:58 PM
Well that’s why I’m a newbie. I guess I’m wrong I’m a Smith. 😊

Just taking stock part of the shelf and screwing them together doesn’t quite cut it. Good and interesting designs usually help you get there. “Newbie” and  “Sabersmith” also aren’t two words that tend to go together.

I see one of the Sabersmiths I mentioned is reading this, hopefully he’ll chime in with his pearls of wisdom.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: bombarta on April 07, 2018, 06:47:47 PM
Well that’s why I’m a newbie. I guess I’m wrong I’m a Smith. 😊

Just taking stock part of the shelf and screwing them together doesn’t quite cut it. Good and interesting designs usually help you get there. “Newbie” and  “Sabersmith” also aren’t two words that tend to go together.

I see one of the Sabersmiths I mentioned is reading this, hopefully he’ll chime in with his pearls of wisdom.
Would that of been e57?
Don't see him much these days.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: K-2SO on April 07, 2018, 06:49:23 PM
Well that’s why I’m a newbie. I guess I’m wrong I’m a Smith. 😊

Just taking stock part of the shelf and screwing them together doesn’t quite cut it. Good and interesting designs usually help you get there. “Newbie” and  “Sabersmith” also aren’t two words that tend to go together.

I see one of the Sabersmiths I mentioned is reading this, hopefully he’ll chime in with his pearls of wisdom.
Would that of been e57?
Don't see him much these days.

Possibly  :angel:
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: Darth Chasm on April 07, 2018, 06:51:43 PM
Lecture time...

A “Sabersmith” is a person who is good at designing, creating and competently installing electronics into said designed hilt.

A Sabersmith DOES NOT NEED to be able to create something from raw material or tubes (I.e. need a lathe, mill, etc). Several excellent Sabersmiths have and may still use MHS stuff as their “base”, and that is perfectly fine. The fact that you may not recognize the pieces once the hilts are done are a testament to the individuals “artistry”..

Jbkuma is right that volume isn’t necessary to become a Sabersmith, I happen to know a few excellent Sabersmiths, who don’t build much, or build for profit, but have both won multiple awards and contests. People have seen their work and gawked appropriately (and yes, their works are posted here on the forums). However, one name is fairly well known, while the other is not (partially by choice). And I (and several others) also know who actually coined the term Sabersmith way back when.

An installer is basically someone who will put electronics into any of the myriad of empty hilts floating around out there like (Korbanth’s and others). Conversions also fall into this category in my view, because barring any major metalwork, it’s just a gut and re-install.

To echo what Bombarta said, Solos Hold is classified as a “machinist/manufacturer”. He basically machines empties and others do the installations, which is fine,

Yes, there are many people who crop up on FB and hang their shingle, because that is the easiest way to do it. But if someone is going to be serious, and wants to be taken seriously in this hobby, they have to put in the work, and Build their reputations.

What most don’t know, and/or probably don’t realize is that most of the OG Sabersmiths and a few others all know each other in real life and have for many years. We all watch, take notes, trade notes, etc. and periodically discuss people as necessary. The SABER GUILD here was established by several people to help establish standards or quality and conduct for future Sabersmiths to follow and aspire to. Membership to The Mining Colony is usually the first step on that road.

People think that because they hang their shingle up on FB, they’re just as good as anyone else, and that couldn’t be further from the truth. The saber community is a bit like a video game, there are several levels, INCLUDING some that fairly few know of. Those who really read and try to learn the hobby’s history may eventually stumble across clues to the levels of which I refer to. Like everything else, there are grey areas, and subtle differences but this is the general way of things.

Well said. Best lecture I’ve had since 199... since college.

On the MHS thing, 100% agree. There is a fine line there however. Well maybe a few fine lines. And these are really just a retelling if what has been said already.

1. Getting MHS BH 2 pommel 7 emitter 18 body 5 some chassis parts and electronics and putting that together is one thing and that is not smithing. Smithing with MHS parts is another. Personally, my custom designs are all done by TCSS per my files that i design. I simply don’t have the accommodations for machines that can handle the size of exterior hilt parts or the operations that some of my design features require.

2. Let’s say you get the MHS parts I mentioned in #1 and cut a few grooves or paint a part and assemble it. That doesn’t necessarily make you a smith. It’s really a combination of some and maybe even all of the things I mentioned in my second post above. Wiring, engineering, design, safety, service. That all goes into what makes a smith.

I love doing one offs or maybe a few of one design. It’s a pretty great feeling to go from pencil and napkin to cad to real parts to oh crap now I gotta make it all work to holy crap it actually all works! :) such a great hobby. Sometimes it really does make you feel like you’re a real Jedi constructing your saber.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: Jediseth on April 07, 2018, 06:54:45 PM
Well that’s why I’m a newbie. I guess I’m wrong I’m a Smith. 😊

Just taking stock part of the shelf and screwing them together doesn’t quite cut it. Good and interesting designs usually help you get there. “Newbie” and  “Sabersmith” also aren’t two words that tend to go together.

I see one of the Sabersmiths I mentioned is reading this, hopefully he’ll chime in with his pearls of wisdom.

Ouch! Did you see my last build.  I guess I’ll just take the hit like a man. Lol
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: Darth Chasm on April 07, 2018, 06:55:00 PM
Well that’s why I’m a newbie. I guess I’m wrong I’m a Smith. 😊

Just taking stock part of the shelf and screwing them together doesn’t quite cut it. Good and interesting designs usually help you get there. “Newbie” and  “Sabersmith” also aren’t two words that tend to go together.

I see one of the Sabersmiths I mentioned is reading this, hopefully he’ll chime in with his pearls of wisdom.
Would that of been e57?
Don't see him much these days.

Most definitely. He was and is still one of my sources of inspiration.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: K-2SO on April 07, 2018, 06:56:45 PM
And most of that is fine.

I’ve seen your work, and I’ve been watching Jediseth’s builds as well. You both seem to do good work from what I have seen so far. But like you pointed out, it’s more to it than just machining and installing a hilt there’s also the business side of things.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: K-2SO on April 07, 2018, 06:57:45 PM
Well that’s why I’m a newbie. I guess I’m wrong I’m a Smith. 😊

Just taking stock part of the shelf and screwing them together doesn’t quite cut it. Good and interesting designs usually help you get there. “Newbie” and  “Sabersmith” also aren’t two words that tend to go together.

I see one of the Sabersmiths I mentioned is reading this, hopefully he’ll chime in with his pearls of wisdom.

Ouch! Did you see my last build.  I guess I’ll just take the hit like a man. Lol

It’s a superficial flesh wound.... you’ll probably live.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: bombarta on April 07, 2018, 07:01:30 PM
Yes DC totally with you.
After I started using 3D software to make chassis I became more of an alrounder as I don't need to rely on any one for that now, quite a few custom chassis down the line.
And also just handed in to my machinist a render which he can machine from and it's saved me a money as he doesn't need to work from paper diagrams now.
Seeing it pop up in his cad software was one of those ooo ahh moments.
I just wish I had the cash and space for the bigger lathes and mills.
For now I settle for my bench lathe.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: Darth Chasm on April 07, 2018, 07:05:24 PM
Yes DC totally with you.
After I started using 3D software to make chassis I became more of an alrounder as I don't need to rely on any one for that now, quite a few custom chassis down the line.
And also just handed in to my machinist a render which he can machine from and it's saved me a money as he doesn't need to work from paper diagrams now.
Seeing it pop up in his cad software was one of those ooo ahh moments.
I just wish I had the cash and space for the bigger lathes and mills.
For now I settle for my bench lathe.

 :grin: ^^ love it

I have my tiny Sherline on a dresser in my studio apartment hahahahaha. Luckily it’s about as loud as grandmas sewing machine.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: Darth Chasm on April 07, 2018, 07:11:59 PM
... But like you pointed out, it’s more to it than just machining and installing a hilt there’s also the business side of things.

I think this is the biggest thing. Not just for those doing it for the main source of income but even for the hobbyist or part timer that is doing one or just a few sabers a year. I think the ones that succeed in this area are the ones that are building the sabers that they would want to own and treating their customers/buyers the way they would want to be treated. Simply put, loving their work and doing it with integrity.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: bombarta on April 07, 2018, 07:13:49 PM
... But like you pointed out, it’s more to it than just machining and installing a hilt there’s also the business side of things.
Spot on  :grin:

I think this is the biggest thing. Not just for those doing it for the main source of income but even for the hobbyist or part timer that is doing one or just a few sabers a year. I think the ones that succeed in this area are the ones that are building the sabers that they would want to own and treating their customers/buyers the way they would want to be treated. Simply put, loving their work and doing it with integrity.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: K-2SO on April 07, 2018, 07:16:26 PM
... But like you pointed out, it’s more to it than just machining and installing a hilt there’s also the business side of things.

I think this is the biggest thing. Not just for those doing it for the main source of income but even for the hobbyist or part timer that is doing one or just a few sabers a year. I think the ones that succeed in this area are the ones that are building the sabers that they would want to own and treating their customers/buyers the way they would want to be treated. Simply put, loving their work and doing it with integrity.

Yes, this is very important, and is some of what we look for when considering members for the Mining Colony.  :wink:

Trust me, I have seen a long list of people who have ruined their reputations via their actions. Some are very well known and documented, and others, not so much.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: Jediseth on April 07, 2018, 07:46:42 PM
I  really enjoy making stuff, sabers and saber related items.  I think if you transition into doing it for a living it can become not so enjoyable.  It’s very hard to make a living with a pay check that’s not consistent. I’ve done it for over 20 years.  I would love to make one of a kind sabers and sell them. I don’t know is that a “ Smith” ?
You hear so many that get tied up with trying to make money and with a backlog they can’t keep up with and such.  I can see it becomes so frustrating. I don’t want to be that and it makes me feel sad for those who get stuck there.  I just like spending my free time doing the best I can with my limitations.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: K-2SO on April 07, 2018, 07:54:41 PM
I  really enjoy making stuff, sabers and saber related items.  I think if you transition into doing it for a living it can become not so enjoyable.  It’s very hard to make a living with a pay check that’s not consistent. I’ve done it for over 20 years.  I would love to make one of a kind sabers and sell them. I don’t know is that a “ Smith” ?
You hear so many that get tied up with trying to make money and with a backlog they can’t keep up with and such.  I can see it becomes so frustrating. I don’t want to be that and it makes me feel sad for those who get stuck there.  I just like spending my free time doing the best I can with my limitations.

Some come into it looking to make “a quick buck”.  I can usually see those types of people coming a mile away. Half of the time, they wind up crashing and burning in spectacular fashion. Usually in those cases, it’s the poor unsuspecting person looking to get something done “cheap” that winds up getting hurt.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: JakeSoft on April 07, 2018, 08:04:07 PM
This is a very interesting discussion! I'll chime in with my thoughts.

I'll start by saying it's hard to define a term that only exists within a niche community because it is colloquial so there is no official definition AFAIK, but the effort to come up with one might be a good exercise.

I've always thought of the term "sabersmith" as an analog to "blacksmith" or "bladesmith". In both of those cases, the smith begins with the raw materials, usually high-carbon steel or some other metal, maybe some wood or leather, melts it down, cuts it, shapes it, and forges those things into something. I associate it with starting with very little and applying a high level of physical effort to create something amazing. So, with that in mind, I have always thought that at least some level of fabrication (machining, cutting, bending, etc.) as a requirement.

So, to me, it has to be something more than simply putting parts together. I'd say the term "installer" is more accurate in that case; It's not creating something totally new from materials, it's just putting together things that somebody else made. There can be joy in that, and a good installer is to be respected because, well, nobody wants a bad install! It's just not "smithing", IMO.

I also feel like "sabersmith" should be reserved for those with expertise in metalwork that create unique hilts of their own design or based on what they've seen on screen as closely as they can manage.

To follow up on jbkuma's earlier comment about code work possibly being considered, I think there needs to be a separate term to describe those who build and develop their own saber control systems or advance existing open source solutions. This is a more recent development that it's become widespread enough to talk about, but I'd like to coin the phrase "saber engineering" to describe that kind of thing. The skill set required work on the code and the intricate electronic inner-workings of a saber differs greatly from working metal to form a hilt.

"Smithing" to me seems focused on the physical outward appearance and function of the saber, while "engineering" is focused on the inner-workings and behavior of the saber; how it all works. Both are needed for a good saber.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: K-2SO on April 07, 2018, 08:13:34 PM

To follow up on jbkuma's earlier comment about code work possibly being considered, I think there needs to be a separate term to describe those who build and develop their own saber control systems or advance existing open source solutions. This is a more recent development that it's become widespread enough to talk about, but I'd like to coin the phrase "saber engineering" to describe that kind of thing. The skill set required work on the code and the intricate electronic inner-workings of a saber differs greatly from working metal to form a hilt.

"Smithing" to me seems focused on the physical outward appearance and function of the saber, while "engineering" is focused on the inner-workings and behavior of the saber; how it all works. Both are needed for a good saber.

We call you “sound card manufacturers”.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: Jediseth on April 07, 2018, 08:14:25 PM
Excellent comments JakeSoft.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: JakeSoft on April 07, 2018, 08:15:04 PM

To follow up on jbkuma's earlier comment about code work possibly being considered, I think there needs to be a separate term to describe those who build and develop their own saber control systems or advance existing open source solutions. This is a more recent development that it's become widespread enough to talk about, but I'd like to coin the phrase "saber engineering" to describe that kind of thing. The skill set required work on the code and the intricate electronic inner-workings of a saber differs greatly from working metal to form a hilt.

"Smithing" to me seems focused on the physical outward appearance and function of the saber, while "engineering" is focused on the inner-workings and behavior of the saber; how it all works. Both are needed for a good saber.

We call you “sound card manufacturers”.

LOL. I don't manufacture anything and don't ever plan to. I haven't made a dime from any of the code I've released.

There are a whole bunch of people out there now creating their own saber control boards just for fun.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: Darth Chasm on April 07, 2018, 08:19:36 PM
If I may... Space Wizards. Yes, Space Wizards.

All joking aside, very good points you bring up.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: JakeSoft on April 07, 2018, 08:24:44 PM
If I may... Space Wizards. Yes, Space Wizards.

All joking aside, very good points you bring up.

I would also accept "crazy old space wizzard".  :laugh:
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: jbkuma on April 07, 2018, 10:03:52 PM
What do you call the things that are so custom they probably won't explode?  That's the kind of thing I like to build!  :grin:
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: Sethski on April 08, 2018, 03:59:22 AM
Giving this thought, it's not easy to pin down. 'Smithing' for me does imply a physical art/craft/fabrication manual process to create something from metal. In the saber context, it seems a bit broader, but that's still there and in focus.

I guess I'd describe as 'sabersmith' as something like: somebody who designs and creates custom sabers; has an established, ongoing practice of this; has an understanding of and skill and experience with most of the processes involved, especially design and fabrication; that the sabers they produce are made to a professional level, in the sense that the end result meets at least the minimum that's expected for all aspects of the saber within the market where they're sold; if/when they do sell their work, they stand by it and provide a level of service that this implies.

It's difficult not to tie it in with people doing it as all or part of their livelihood as a straightforward yes/no part of criteria, and maybe that does form part of many people's idea of a sabersmith, but I can think of so many people I know or have known who are extremely skilled in various creative practices they do regularly - at or well beyond a baseline 'professional' level - but choose not to make it a job or career, it just doesn't sit right for me to make that a measure, as I wouldn't consider these folks any less an artist/musician/maker/animator/writer/etc/etc than someone who earns money from it.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: Darth Chasm on April 08, 2018, 04:50:21 AM
Well put Seth. I know similar people.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: bombarta on April 08, 2018, 06:44:15 AM
Agree with DC well said Sethski.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: JakeSoft on April 08, 2018, 07:53:45 AM
It's difficult not to tie it in with people doing it as all or part of their livelihood as a straightforward yes/no part of criteria, and maybe that does form part of many people's idea of a sabersmith, but I can think of so many people I know or have known who are extremely skilled in various creative practices they do regularly - at or well beyond a baseline 'professional' level - but choose not to make it a job or career, it just doesn't sit right for me to make that a measure, as I wouldn't consider these folks any less an artist/musician/maker/animator/writer/etc/etc than someone who earns money from it.

I agree with this. The skills to monetize your work are independent from actually doing the work itself to a high level of quality.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: jbkuma on April 08, 2018, 08:17:16 AM
Sounds 'bout right to me.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: jbkuma on April 08, 2018, 08:55:28 AM
To put things more succinctly: Smithing implies transforming starting materials into something else.

To put it less succinctly and into murky metaphor:
We wouldn't call someone who bought a packaged builtd-it-yourself cabinet set from a big box a wood worker or cabinet maker, even if they were to paint it and chose which pieces went where. That isn't to say they didn't do something that required, an artistic eye, time, effort and care.  Let's be honest, those instructions only get you half way there and a bit of research before and during the process really helped get the project to the finish line.  It isn't pejorative to say this isn't craftsmanship.  Everyone loves Assemblyperson Pat Geterdon, all is well.

Now if this same person were to take these cabinets and start taking them apart, cutting parts away, adding in pieces here and there, we are beginning to have someone a bit more advanced in the art of building cabinets.  Not every corner is perfectly square, that one door is a bit loose, and there is that gap we wouldn't notice unless it was pointed out in just the right light.  The point is that it's functional and customized to the need of the space.  This person is still not a wood worker or cabinet maker, but they are heading in that direction.  Perhaps if the Fates had blown the winds further west, this person would be building cabinets rather than their equally gratifying job of building custom copy machines for orphans.  Everyone loves Bob Builderson, all is well.

Then there is Sally Cabinetsmith.  Sally starts with sheets of wood, boxes of screws, crates of hardware, and after a period of time this pile of materials is transformed into a tightly fitting, square, plumb, level and, well, a gorgeous piece of cabinetry.  Not only did she start with raw materials, she selected their size, source and type based on her knowledge and experience.   Sometimes it makes sense to incorporate an existing piece, or outsource a special door.  There's no need to re-invent the wheel, and Nick Doorman does exceptional work.  She doesn't have all of the tools every other cabinet maker uses, or use every technique imaginable, but her work speaks for itself, methods and materials aren't what makes her the top in her game: it's skill, knowledge and the ability to execute those things at a high level that puts her a step ahead.  She may only build one or two cabinets a year, and last year she took off to the entire Star Wars EU catalog for the second time (that's HER head canon), but no one questions that her work is worth what ever you are willing to pay for it.  Everyone loves Sally Cabinetsmith, not more or less than Bob or Pat, and that's ok. All is well.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: EXAR KUN on May 09, 2018, 12:54:21 PM
One of these words that always annoys me is 'installer'.

Sounds so cheap.  'Installer.'

Sounds like it all happens very easily and quickly... like something you do half asleep. I never had an install go smoothly really... or take less time than I can predict. Always more. And installing isn't just putting stuff in a soldering... I never had it that easy! There's always planning, drilling, sanding, polishing, fixing something unforeseen, unknown-at-the-start problems, and just custom issues that arise when you do a different hilt like all the time... and basically never the same hilt twice. Maybe if you did Graflexes all the time you'd become accustomed to those and figure out speedier processes. But when you work on a different hilt every time... there are new problems/new strategies have to be employed.

I don't know.

I just don't like that 'installer' term when it comes to sabers. Like, I was on Instagram one day and I saw a post "My morning install!" and there were pics of a saber. Morning install? What the heck? An install takes me days... not a morning lol. Maybe the planning alone will take a morning.

Another time I saw a forum member post: "Did three installs today!" I was like say what!!??? How is 'installing' so easy and fast for some and so hard for me lol?

Morning install!!!!!! Wooo hooo!!!!! Did you hear me, I said MORNING!!! Done by lunch time!!!!!! (camera pans to me working til 4 am still not done lol)
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: jbkuma on May 09, 2018, 02:12:02 PM
If the install is wiring up the board and screwing some MHS together it doesn't seem like it should take more than a few hours to bang a couple out.  That would certainly be more of assembly/install rather than smithing.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: Morannon on May 12, 2018, 05:58:46 AM
I'm right there with you, Space. I always run into one thing or another. I just assume those installs are done with a pre-made chassis made by someone else, in a hilt it was designed for. Not a ton of thought required I guess. You could always finish it in a morning by jamming it all up in there and crossing your fingers?
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: JakeSoft on May 13, 2018, 10:48:04 AM
Morning install!!!!!! Wooo hooo!!!!! Did you hear me, I said MORNING!!! Done by lunch time!!!!!! (camera pans to me working til 4 am still not done lol)

If using pre-made chassis parts and MHS with all the holes already drilled and tapped, it's totally possible to bang out a very basic build in an afternoon. However, I never do my builds that way and you probably don't either.
Title: Re: What makes a sabersmith a sabersmith?
Post by: eastern57 on May 25, 2018, 02:14:20 AM
Dang it, why didn't anyone tell me...?!?! [/melbrooks]

My opinion, okay, um, lesseee here...

I say go ahead, call yourself a smith, a master builder, tech, artist, installer, MHS assembler... whatever.  Because if no one did, there wouldn't be a lightsaber community.  Whether or not old school dudes actually believed or deserved to be called it, is irrelevant, they called themselves whatever the heck they wanted.  But if it wasn't for them, there wouldn't be anyone to look up to, compare yourself to, or exceed.  It's time that has decided that so-and-so is a sabersmith, or so-and-so is a master builder.  Although, I think Qui-gon is the only one who voluntarily called himself "MHS assembler". lol.

So yeah, call yourself what you will - everyone else will decide if it's correct.

What makes a sabersmith?

Here's what I think: someone else will say so, and the work will speak for itself.  According to Katooso, I may possibly be one. :tongue:  So when you say: "I consider this person a saber smith, but not that person.."  BAM, that's it.  Entirely subjective, but ... yeah, entirely subjective.

If you made the whole hilt or just bought a kit and clipped the leads together, other people will see what you did, and will remember what they will and judge how they will.  If you're lucky enough to be included in a discussion like this, be it private or public, THAT, imho, is what will determine who will be remembered, deemed, agreed is a smith or not.

On a side note... from my experience, that when a bunch of close-knit, like-minded folks get together, it doesn't matter what they call themselves (it's almost all tongue-in-cheek anyway... I was a muppet).  People's personal motives for being involved will eventually rise to the forefront... be it artistry, money, helping people, build challenge, camaraderie - and they eventually pursue said motives, regardless of what they're called.

There's always going to be old folks, newbies, and a bunch of in betweeners. This was an argument when I started, and it's still going... but if it didn't happen as a community, someone would step in and force something arbitrary and stupid on everyone.  So keep it up, ask again in a couple years, the more you opine, the more you casually influence folks to ascend to said levels, thus raising the communal bar, and inadvertently creating "real" sabersmiths and master builders.

 :afro: