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Author Topic: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation  (Read 45694 times)

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Offline Sanjuro

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2013, 02:25:14 PM »
Unfortunate - but as was mentioned in an earlier post, when you are at the top of your industry, it breeds envy and jealously.  There are some people who for which the world will never be right. They live in their own sort of hated world, and it is a true pity.  Starkiller, Luminara, enjoy your vacation - we know there are only a handful of top, trustworthy saber smiths in the world today - and definitely you are one of them.

I think I'll go check out this other forum and see if they have anything to say about me now...

Respectfully,
Sanjuro
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Offline Kel Ardan

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2013, 02:29:23 PM »
I just want to say you guys have been great with the sabers I've purchased from you and would gladly do so again and again! Your customer service and help you provided me was above and beyond what I would expect and you have earned a life long customer here!
No matter where you go, there you are!



Offline GreyJedi

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2013, 02:56:13 PM »
I've seen both this thead and the one on the other site...

All I have to contribute is all this drama is unbecoming of ALL involved.

My 2 cents.



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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2013, 02:58:07 PM »
I've seen both this thead and the one on the other site...

All I have to contribute is all this drama is unbecoming of ALL involved.

My 2 cents.


well said, sir. you practically echoed my post about it.

Offline ARKM

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2013, 03:08:38 PM »
How about this... link to the IRA forum thread in question, let people read what was stated in that thread and then let them come to THEIR OWN CONCLUSION as to what went down.  As a mod at IRA, I can state that ANY member of FX is allowed to post links to ANY IRA thread here at FX, as long as it's allowed here by the FX-Sabers forum mods/rules.

My take is that this was Darth Alice's honest opinion of a Vader's Vault saber that he took apart and that any post by other members that agreed with DA's assessment was also only stating their opinion.  It's just an opinion.  DA and anyone agreeing with him has the right to state it just as Vader's Vault and anyone agreeing with them has the right to rebut it and defend their work.  However... just because this thread is on another forum doesn't mean that there is an ulterior motive on anyone's part to defame or slander.  A person should not expect everyone out there to think their work is great, no matter how great they themselves think it is or how great everyone else they have ever talked to think it is.  There's always going to be people that disagree and that have no ulterior motives in mind.

Offline Sunrider

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2013, 03:11:50 PM »
 Guys, can we refrain from slamming forums? There will always be people on forums that disagree and make comments on things they see. These are individuals not the forum. Deanna, you don't need to defend yourself. It is an old stunt design built for budget that developed a problem somehow. No smith is perfect. I think you should log on to said forum and comment directly if you feel the need. I would welcome your company there and others would too. Until you try to post and are denied, have you really been rejected?

Offline LUMINARA UNDULI

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2013, 03:19:25 PM »
Sunrider, thank you.  That is very kind of you.  As I said, it was the ADMIN directly.  This is not something I just think

I believe it has been stated repeatedly in this thread there is no intent to have this be forum vs. forum, although some seem to want to create drama and make it that way.  This has to do with someone slandering a product and the subsequent posts by a couple of other members on that forum. 

We have been told specifically that we are not allowed there, so were unable to go there to refute the information so did so here.

If and when the situation changes and we are allowed there and allowed to post freely, then we will be happy to post there rather than here.

Unfortunately, this was our only avenue to refute misinformation.

I also want to thank everyone for their kind words both here and all the PMs of support we received  today.  This is such a great community and we are honored to be a part of it.



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Offline Sanjuro

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2013, 03:34:40 PM »
How about this... link to the IRA forum thread in question, let people read what was stated in that thread and then let them come to THEIR OWN CONCLUSION as to what went down.  As a mod at IRA, I can state that ANY member of FX is allowed to post links to ANY IRA thread here at FX, as long as it's allowed here by the FX-Sabers forum mods/rules.

My take is that this was Darth Alice's honest opinion of a Vader's Vault saber that he took apart and that any post by other members that agreed with DA's assessment was also only stating their opinion.  It's just an opinion.  DA and anyone agreeing with him has the right to state it just as Vader's Vault and anyone agreeing with them has the right to rebut it and defend their work.  However... just because this thread is on another forum doesn't mean that there is an ulterior motive on anyone's part to defame or slander.  A person should not expect everyone out there to think their work is great, no matter how great they themselves think it is or how great everyone else they have ever talked to think it is.  There's always going to be people that disagree and that have no ulterior motives in mind.

I don't know that I agree with this.  Sometimes information is presented, in such a way as to purposefully create a negative opinion.  I believe that that was the case there. When you read the post, it creates a negative tone.  A novice reading it would not want to buy a VV saber.  No mention that the Havok is an entry level saber, no mention that splitting wiring is a normal thing, no mention that a copper pipe cap is an innovative solution.

An opinion, yes...  But a negative one.  Also, the implication that the CS board is suboptimal, and another board would really make the saber "sing".

This is not about forum vs forum - this type of negative spin opinion - on this forum as well, would not be indicative of any community with integrity.

Respectfully,
Sanjuro
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 03:40:14 PM by Sanjuro »
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Offline ARKM

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2013, 03:41:20 PM »
It not about the community, it's about the individual.  That how everyone should see it.  Sadly, that does not seem to be how people ARE seeing it.  What Darth Alice said is no different from leaving negative feedback in a feedback thread.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 03:43:01 PM by ARKM »

Offline PhoenixJedi

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2013, 03:43:39 PM »
This is not a post I ever expected to have to see. Most of you know by now that I am a sabersmith from New York who is also a member of NY Jedi. As being such, I have been there while NYJ members have bought many sabers from multiple companies. VV being one of them.

I can tell you this, I have seen the insides of multiple VV sabers, and you know what? NONE of the parts on the inside have ever shocked me. The quality is not lowered by them using said 'copper endcap' as a heatsink, as a matter of fact, it has more surface area than heatsinks that 'some' other companies have used, which would give it superior heat dissipation right there.

Complaining about Yellow Heatshrink? REALLY?!?!? People are really complaining about the COLOR of the heatshrink?

Then complaining about the LED not being resistored on the CS and/or NB boards... REALLY? Its made to be able to handle that, READ a manual.

And, we all split wires. How else do you expect us to get multiple things to light up from ONE pad?

Honestly, these are all things that could have been understood with some COMMON SENSE.

As such, I would throw my support completely behind Vader's Vault anytime they need it. Alan and Deanna have taught me quite a bit since I started over 3 years ago, especially regarding wiring, sound (when I got my first CF, they were invaluable), and dealing with quite a few ANNOYING issues that have come my way while I was on the boards, especially one huge one. They do nothing but help anyone they can, even if its not with one of their own sabers.

-Phoenix

We're on vacation, so I'm trying real hard to not get on the forums so I can enjoy the time off with my family. However, something was brought to our attention by a few friends that really irked me. It seems some people at another forum took it upon themselves to take apart one of our Havocs and make several assumptions, pontificate on some really bad information and generally slander our product and compare us to another company I will not mention. Since that forum deliberately keeps out several reputable smiths so they can continue to spread bad info, I have to post this here and dirty this forum in an effort to correct the problem.

First, I don't remember  in the last 5 years where I've ever NOT helped a customer out with one of our products if they actually came to us to give us an opportunity to do so. Since these are all handmade products, we can acknowledge that nothing is ever perfect and there will be times where things happen. However, to slander a company in public and disguise it as an 'upgrade' thread, after you didn't give them an opportunity to fix something shows petty and ulterior motives. Let's get to the "issues" that were discussed.

The heatsink:

It's no secret that for the last few years....well....since the beginning really, we've used a copper pipe cap for an optics module in our entry level sabers. We admit, it's not the most glamorous looking solution, and we've changed a few things about it after getting customer feedback and our own testing. However, it WORKS. It is a VIABLE heatsink as it is made from COPPER and does a fine job of transferring heat to the hilt which is the only job a heatsink has to accomplish. To compare what we use to a chrome plated zinc alloy nut with no heat transfer ability shows great ignorance. The copper cap has more than adequate mass and conductivity to pull heat away from the LED and get it to open air to dissipate. We have a design that is 'machined' to fit, and it is quite a bit more expensive to get mass produced but when we find the right cost balance we'll make it happen. This however, is mainly aesthetic and not necessarily for any kind of functional improvement.  For reference, in thermal conductivity, copper trumps aluminum by a long shot and aluminum only has 60% of the thermal conductivity of copper. So to replace the existing copper heatsink with an aluminum one was really just for aesthetics and offers no improvement in heat transfer and to postulate it as anything else is plain stupid.  In fact it creates a reduction in thermal conductivity so is an inferior solution for functionality.

The ...ah....'color' of the heatshrink. You don't like yellow....um....ok.

On certain colors, we don't resist the main LED. Yep, you caught us. We had the Shard made to operate on a single 3.7v cell so we wouldn't have to worry about resisting main LEDs except in the cases of reds/ambers. You see, current draw is a CONSEQUENCE, and when the vf of the LED is close the source voltage of the battery, it only draws what current it needs, therefore, no resistor is needed. Occasionally, and VERY occasionally a Tri-Rebel will draw more than the 2A that the onboard transistor will allow. In this case, the genius that is Erv' put in a digital control so you can limit the LED. It is the onboard "Drive" parameter. does it work for huge voltage drops like with a red? Nope. This is why we use an external resistor on the red LEDs.

Splitting Wires: Any sabersmith worth his solder, learns early on about wiring economy in order to avoid the spaghetti messes seen on poorly wired sabers. When wiring compact sabers, It is often necessary to split, or share wires with common polarity in order to reduce the overall number of wires in the hilt. This does not negatively affect the saber in any way. We also use a very expensive, high quality wire. It is thin, yes, but is rated REALLY well and it's equal cannot be found here domestically so it is imported. If you choose to use a separate lead for everything in order to not confuse yourself, this is fine, but don't use it as a talking point to try and slam another company.

Bringing up our older 'prototype' stunts to compare them to our work today is pretty silly. Our older stunts were sold as "prototypes" as we worked through what materials and techniques we were going to use. Our older AAA spring pack worked for a time, and after feed back that showed the spring pack interfered with the Pololu's ability to function properly as impacts would often cause the Pololu to reset in our stunts. This is why we now use the single 18650 solution in a nice and tight holder for both stunts and sound versions. If there is a problem with a saber shutting down on impact now, it is most likely due to another issue, like a bad battery PCB, or a loose SD card. But since no one came to us with any questions or issues, I guess we'll never know. Also, to criticize someone's work for not functioning after it has changed hands 2, 3+ times is petty.

I've always felt that we go over and above for our customers and the community in general. We often go over and above even our stated warranty, so if someone who obtained one of our sabers encountered a problem, we would have loved to have been given the opportunity to demonstrate our willingness to accommodate them. Normally, I wouldn't even respond to something so petty while on vacation, but when a post was done not in the effort to educate or to even show off a redux of someones work, but rather as an attempt to slander our reputation and business, it required my attention. So if anyone has any questions as to why we do things on any of our sabers, please feel free to ask. Also, if any customers have feedback on something, we're always willing to listen and if it makes sense, change things based on it. That's what REAL sabersmiths do. It's unfortunate that the offending post was made, and I guess it achieved it's purpose of being hurtful. I just felt the need to come in and correct the misinformation that is spread as it is the habit of a certain group to speak loudly and as often as possible to make people believe something is true, even if it's utter fabrication.

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Offline Sanjuro

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2013, 03:53:13 PM »
It not about the community, it's about the individual.  That how everyone should see it.  Sadly, that does not seem to be how people ARE seeing it.  What Darth Alice said is no different from leaving negative feedback in a feedback thread.

Yes - agreed - negative feedback.  But unjust negative feedback.  It is not about an individual - a community is made up of the individuals.  And it this is tolerated from an individual posting, then this reflects the community as a whole.  Truthful posts are one thing.  That post was not that.

Respectfully,
Sanjuro
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Offline QUI-GON JINN

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2013, 04:04:42 PM »
It would really be poor form to leave negative feedback for a manufacturer of a product that was purchased used,  and not new. If Darth Alice had concerns about the saber,  he could have contacted Vader's Vault about it before simply leaving what is, in essence, a negative review of an older product.  Honestly,  if he thinks that one was bad internally,  he should see some of my older personal saber's guts....not pretty,  but functional.  :-[  ;)

Oh,  and by the way,  all of this "forum vs. forum" crap should stop...it's really childish.  :(


Offline ARKM

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2013, 04:05:49 PM »
It not about the community, it's about the individual.  That how everyone should see it.  Sadly, that does not seem to be how people ARE seeing it.  What Darth Alice said is no different from leaving negative feedback in a feedback thread.

Yes - agreed - negative feedback.  But unjust negative feedback.  It is not about an individual - a community is made up of the individuals.  And it this is tolerated from an individual posting, then this reflects the community as a whole.  Truthful posts are one thing.  That post was not that.

Respectfully,
Sanjuro

That's your opinion.  I respectfully disagree.  You're stating that Darth Alice does not believe his own statements are true and is therefore lying from some ulterior motive.  I believe that he is stating what he truly believes and that his intent was not to slander VV's work but to honestly express how he felt about said work.  I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with his assessment, but that does not mean that he is stating something that he himself does not truly believe.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 04:08:10 PM by ARKM »

Offline Sanjuro

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2013, 04:13:34 PM »
It not about the community, it's about the individual.  That how everyone should see it.  Sadly, that does not seem to be how people ARE seeing it.  What Darth Alice said is no different from leaving negative feedback in a feedback thread.

Yes - agreed - negative feedback.  But unjust negative feedback.  It is not about an individual - a community is made up of the individuals.  And it this is tolerated from an individual posting, then this reflects the community as a whole.  Truthful posts are one thing.  That post was not that.

Respectfully,
Sanjuro

That's your opinion.  I respectfully disagree.  You're stating that Darth Alice does not believe his own statements are true and is therefore lying from some ulterior motive.  I believe that he is stating what he truly believes and that his intent was not to slander VV's work but to honestly express how he felt about said work.  I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with his assessment, but that does not mean that he is stating something that he himself does not truly believe.

Yes - my opinion.  But what he is saying is not the truth.  And just because he believes it to be true is not a justification.  He can be educated, corrected, and then his post corrected.  But to leave that uneducated "opinion" out there is not honorable.

Respectfully,
Sanjuro
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Offline ARKM

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Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2013, 04:21:43 PM »
It not about the community, it's about the individual.  That how everyone should see it.  Sadly, that does not seem to be how people ARE seeing it.  What Darth Alice said is no different from leaving negative feedback in a feedback thread.

Yes - agreed - negative feedback.  But unjust negative feedback.  It is not about an individual - a community is made up of the individuals.  And it this is tolerated from an individual posting, then this reflects the community as a whole.  Truthful posts are one thing.  That post was not that.

Respectfully,
Sanjuro

That's your opinion.  I respectfully disagree.  You're stating that Darth Alice does not believe his own statements are true and is therefore lying from some ulterior motive.  I believe that he is stating what he truly believes and that his intent was not to slander VV's work but to honestly express how he felt about said work.  I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with his assessment, but that does not mean that he is stating something that he himself does not truly believe.

Yes - my opinion.  But what he is saying is not the truth.  And just because he believes it to be true is not a justification.  He can be educated, corrected, and then his post corrected.  But to leave that uneducated "opinion" out there is not honorable.

Respectfully,
Sanjuro

Ah I see what you're getting at.  I'm sorry if I insulted you by assuming that I thought that you thought that DA was intentionally lying.  I can't say that I agree with your assessment of the situation as I am not knowledgeable enough in electronics to do so.  Both Vader's Vault and Darth Alice are very skilled in what they do.  However some people differ in opinion on how a thing should be done, when there is more than one way to do it.  Perhaps this is all this issue really boils down to.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 04:31:40 PM by ARKM »

 

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