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Offline bodi

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Re: Real Saber Concepts...
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2007, 01:22:33 PM »
Hello, everyone. I'm Bodi, and as Yoda told you, I have some pretty cool things to show you. Thank's Mike!

I'm really excited about becoming part of the great community I see here. I did do some posting over at TCCS earlier this year and I see that some of my material (design images) has already been posted here, based on the imaginative reengineering of jedi hilt at tcss. I'll address that later, along with current ideas about real saber design, but first I would like to lay out my design, so you can see the original concept, and I will do my best to make it a little more understandable than the posts I submitted at TCCS.  If you have any problem with the material being too complex, let me know and I will do my best to simplify it.

First, a little about me...

I was seven years old when Star Wars was released in theatres in 1977. It had more impact on me that I can put into words, as I know it did many of you. Star Wars ignited something in me to pursue the things have shaped my life.

A love of science. A love of the martial arts. Naturally these took me to Zen, Taoism, Buddhism, religion and spiritualty in general, psychology, parapsychology, among myriads of similar disciplines.  Anything and everything that touches on the potential and meaning that lies within each of us in any way consumes me.

I am certainly no master of any of these disciplines, but as I continue to try to piece together my understanding of reality and humanity's place in it, it becomes more and more clear to me that there is an evolutionary leap in spiritual understanding that is occuring in the world.

I find that significant and I believe (although maybe I'm quite literally crazy to do so, and admit this) that while in my opinion George Lucas failed somewhat in his vision with the prequels (not that they weren't still pretty good), the first three original movies were .... prophetic. I think that he tapped into something that reveals one possible expression of that evolutionary leap mankind may be on the road to making.

Anyway, the whole point all this is that, to me, there is a symbol of that possible human leap. There is something that I can point to in a Zenlike way and say there it is, in its suchness.

The lightsaber represents a tangible expression of something I cannot put into words, at least, not well, as this weak attempt to do so shows. The lightsaber represents the physical expression of all that defines what I want to be, and I cannot express the meaning that such a thing has for me, only say that I feel compelled to walk this path, and that I believe it is a path with heart.

So, I would like to share an engineering idea I have for real lightsabers. This is mostly speculative, mostly just imagination, although the science is fairly sound, and I have some experimental reasons to believe it could work, although there would be a great deal of research needed to actually bring it to reality, if it is in fact even workable.

Some considerations and criteria:

The following points are those which MUST be considered in any attempt to seriously construct a working device. They are implicit in the nature of what we are attempting. Consider this to be a checklist we can use to sift through ideas. Any model which purports to be valid and workable MUST adhere to each of these points and solve the difficulties inherent in them or it simply is not feasible. We will be examining some design models later based on this list, and constructing our own model with it in mind.

Point # 1 - Power

Any model we can consider will almost certainly require large amounts of energy. Since we have a limited amount of space for the power supply, it is of paramount importance that any method of generating the blade be within the limits of the amount of power we can supply.

We can easily calculate an upper limit to how much power we can supply in the amount of space available. So the first question we must ask of each model is this: Does the design allow for the blade generating portion to be powered from a supply that can fit in the handle along with it and the controls?

Incidentally, power and energy are not quite the same thing. Energy is the capacity to perform work, power is energy acting over time. For more information on this topic, as well as the distinctions between volts, amps, watts, joules, etc., which seem to give people some real problems, I will post some basic info later, if needed.

Point # 2 - Size of Blade Generating Apparatus

The other side of the power issue. Once again, we are working with a limited amount of space. It does us no good to have a plausible means of generating the blade, if the gear to do so fills a room, or if it cannot fit in the space we have left after putting in the power supply.

Point # 3 - Safety

Even if we have a method of generating the blade within these parameters, if it inundates the user with x-rays or some other harmful radiation, its no good. If the device works, but the handle becomes red hot during use, its back to the drawing board. And so on. We must consider any unintended side effects and either eliminate or minimize them to an acceptable level. While a lightsaber is, of course, by definition, an unsafe device, we must still ask, "Is this model dangerous or harmful in a manner we didn't expect"?

Point # 4 - Current Technology

It goes without saying that the apparatus must make use of existing technology or at least be plausibly within reach of existing technology. This seems so obvious as to be silly, yet many models ignore it. Research along new lines of thought is perfectly acceptable, but we must have a basis for believing that it will yield results, and some practical means of attaining them.

Point # 5 - Adherence to Design Goals.

This point also seems so obvious as to be redundant. However, it seems to be ignored frequently, so here it is. Is the design we have for a working lightsaber actually a design for a working lightsaber? If so, then the blade must have the following characteristics:

Solidity - The simplest way to express this is to say that the blade must be able to deliver kinetic energy as well as cut through an object. A less technical way to express this is to say that if you strike an object with your saber, and it doesn't cut it, it will bounce off, and the object will have a tendency to go the other way.

Rigidity - The blade must not bend. If it has some slight give to it (like a really hard rubber baton or such), this may be acceptable, however, it must be strong, and have the ability to resist considerable  force.

Destructive Potential - It needs to be able to quickly cut through most, if not all objects, like....well....like a lightsaber

Defensive Potential (see solidity) - The blade must be impenetrable to other lightsaber blades as well as material objects (if they are not cut immediately, of course).

I'm really not worried about 'blaster" bolts, since at the present time, there are no such thing as 'blasters'. Although we do have lasers, you don't see them much in handheld weapons at this time. In addition, I somewhat doubt that there would be many, if any, who would actually possess the qualities needed to perform such a feat as blocking 'blaster' bolts at this present time, even if lightsaber's and 'blaster's' were both real. We'll beat that horse when we come to it.

Length - The blade is apx. 70 - 80 centimeters in length, and remains constant in attributes from the first centimeter to the last. This means it does not fade or change down the lenght of the blade.

This constitutes a good starting point from which to consider our models and ideas.The above points are not negotiable. They must be adhered to or the design is flawed. However, there are certain additional points which are preferred, but may be variable, as long as all of the above are met. For example, it is preferable that the blade be more or less pure energy. I would rather not have a telescoping rod, or other physical medium involved in any way in the blade itself, but if it works (in accordance with above), its a possibility. It is also preferable that the device be electrically powered.

Let's begin with a very incredible man by the name of Nikola Tesla. Tesla was a Serbian/American inventer who quite literally changed the world. In spite of this, many people have never even heard of him! I think this is a great tragedy, considering that if it were not for Tesla, history and the world we live in now would be a very different place.

Tesla was born on July 9th, 1856 in Austria/Hungary. Among his many accomplishments was the invention of radio. Yes, radio, and no, it wasn't Marconi. Though Marconi was given credit for inventing radio, the US Supreme Court later recognized in 1943 that Tesla's patent had priority over Marconi's, who incidentally was a student of Tesla's. Can you imagine a world without TV or radio?

Tesla also invented the fluorescent light, and this was at a time when Edison was still trying to perfect the filament light bulb!

Take a look at any wall in your home. In fact, what is your computer plugged into right now? An AC wall socket. Guess who invented the polyphase alternating-current system we use today? Tesla. As a matter of fact, Tesla also invented a means to supply power to homes WITHOUT WIRES, and even built a tower and demonstrated it's workability.

Tesla also invented the principle of the rotating magnetic field, induction motors, and other forms of motors, and most electric motors used today are no different that those shown in his patents.

Tesla had over 600 patents to his credit, including a telephone repeater, high voltage/frequency power supplies (Tesla coils), remote controls, robots and many many others. It is entirely possible that he was the first man to detect radio waves from space. Tesla was the first to suggest the principle of radar.

Tesla took the first X-ray photographs, and his designs for "individualization" introduced the principle used in logic gates in computer circuitry. And the idea of breaking up signals, moving them around in frequency or time, lies at the heart of present-day communications security.

Tesla holds the first patent for a vertical takeoff/landing craft, which he received at the age of 72. Among his most amazing inventions was that of particle beam weaponry in the 1930's!

Tesla dragged the world into the 20th century while he was alive and pushed it into the 21 century from the grave. Hard to believe? Yes. True? Absolutely. Do some research, read some books, check out some Tesla links on the web, and see for yourself. Then write a letter to the Smithsonian and the history books, and ask them why Edison gets all the glory, while the one man most responsible for our technological status as a species is hardly mentioned.

Tesla died on January 7, 1943 in New York City, almost penniless.

Tesla's work provides us with several concepts, which, when taken together, allow us to imagine a possible means of designing a real lightsaber.

The first, and most important concept is that of turning energy into a field with matter-like properties of solidity and rigidity, a force-field.

Tesla found that as an electrical arc's vibrations were increased in frequency, the arc began to act strangly, almost as if it were becoming solid matter rather than simply energy. This of course, is not surprising in light of Mr. Einstein's later demonstration that matter and energy are really different forms of the same thing. However, whereas Einstein simply demonstrated this mathematically, Tesla demonstrated it experimentally.

Taking this further, we can postulate that if we had the ability to create a high enough frequency electrical arc, it would not be simply an arc anymore, it would be a force field, in the shape of a thread. Let's call this the Tesla effect.

We are talking about extremely high frequencies here. Much higher than we have been able to create thus far. I'm sure the waveform is important, too. You can research this in Tesla's work, but there is not a great deal of info on this to be had, more or less just a mention of the effect. However, it provides us with a beginning.

Let's assume, for the moment, that we could create an electrical arc at a high enough frequency to achieve this effect. How can we make a blade shape out it?

Well, let's now look at Tesla's concept of the rotating magnetic field. All electrical motors today use this principle. It is based on the fact that a coil with a 90 degree out of phase electrical current running through it produces a spinning magnetic field. Could we use a spinning magnetic field to spin our arc thread into a circular field?

There is one final concept to be understood, which comes not from Tesla, but from current research with superconductors. We know that a superconductor will reflect magnetic fields. Could we use this effect to reflect our spinning circular force field arc out into a blade shape?

Lets put it all together...

My blade emitter design is as follows:

The inner electrode is surrounded by a circular outer electrode as illustrated. The lower orange portion represents the superconductor which is being used as a magnetic mirror. The outer brown ring represents the stator coils. An AC voltage is applied to the electrodes at the lower end of the Tesla Effect range, which along with the introduction of certain plasma catalyst materials into the arc stream provides us with the 'Tesla Effect' plasmoid arc, or tesloid.


As the tesloid rotates,


the magnetic field it creates is reflected from the superconductor underneath and the tesloid is repulsed in the opposite direction of the emitter.



As the tesloid continues to expand, the alternating current and frequency is increased towards the higher end of the Tesla effect and power range, and the field repulsion in conjuction with this allows for the growth of the blade.

Please note - this is NOT a 'containment field'. It is merely the principle used to elongate the blade. At full extension, the AC reaches its peak for power, speed and TE.


Some Design Problems

Power - very large amounts of energy would be required. Typically, in a normal arc, apx. 1000V (1KV) is needed to produce an arc of 1 mm in length. Since our tesloid is apx. 1400 to 1600 mm in length (to produce a 70 to 80 cm blade) this would mean we need a voltage of between 1400 to 1600 KV or 1.4 to 1.6 MV (million volts) if it were a normal arc. Various factors, however, such as frequency, for example, reduce the voltage needed, and I estimate our tesloid of the required length would need around 100 -500 KV, which while still extreme, is somewhat less daunting. Amperage, on the other hand, is another matter, not yet figured, hopefully will be very low.

Electrodes - The electrodes will be required to withstand a large amount of heat and stress. Not the full force of the blades power, but still enough that their composition will constitute a problem. A plus in this area is that since the point of contact is constantly moving, only a portion of the electrode is in contact for any given instant, therefore the stress is mitigated over a comparatively large area.

Superconductor cooling system size problems. - Currently superconductors require very low temps to operate. This means installation of a cooling system, probably liquid nitrogen. Given that the blade emitter itself will be relatively small, this may not be insurmountable, but I'm sure will bring a host of problems, absorption of waste heat reducing performance, etc.

Insulators - Insulators of an unusual sort will be required, given the attributes of the device.

Interaction of the rotating field with the magnetic mirror problems

Interaction of the field coils with the magnetic mirror problems.

Field coil induction problems.

Size of components is a big problem.

Weight of the finished device - it would be difficult to keep the weight of the device within reasonable specs.

I hope that this serves as a decent introduction to the topic. I will go more in depth into the idea as we go along, and if there are any questions or comments, I would love to hear them! I look forward to discussing this with all of you, and hope that we can, at the very least, have a lot of fun talking about it.

For those of a more technical frame of mind, other backyard inventors, etc. - I have a list of research and design goals and protocals to investigate actually experimenting and engineering along these lines as well. Not for the faint of heart!

Thanks!

peace,

Bodi

Offline Yoda

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Re: Real Saber Concepts...
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2007, 01:34:02 PM »
Thanks for posting that Bodi 8)

I think this will help spark some interest amongst the others here of like minded
concepts that have validity and could be developed for practical uses.

Like we had discussed the other day... a Lightsaber would be an alternative to the Jaws of life mechanism
uses for opening crushed cars as well as numerous other cutting applications where length control for
cutting depth is required as well as it's obvious weaponry applications if it can be wielded properly ;)

MTFBWY
always
YODA


Offline SAESEE TIIN

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Re: Real Saber Concepts...
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2007, 01:35:04 PM »
I also highly reccomend researching Tesla as there is some amazing info on the guy.  My first stop was researching him on Wikipedia last year when we discovered one of our classmates looked identical to Tesla.  Some of the stuff will blow your mind and could possibly be applied to this very subject!

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Offline LANDO CALRISSIAN

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Re: Real Saber Concepts...
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2007, 02:32:07 PM »
Hello Bodi.
Good job and great to see someone else giving the props to my man Tesla. I don't understand how I went through high school in the 80's and only herd of the man that laughed in his face, Edison.

I like you your concept and use of Teslas' research the only thing that I see as needing more consideration is how much power not just Volts but watts will it take to create a "blade that could cut and melt on contact. Tesla himself did great experiments with voltage and frequencies with amps were under the threshold of harm on the human body. We could theoretically increase the voltage to 1000v with the use of a transformer but the amperage required would not be there. Watts in = Watts out. We could even create a simulated phasing using DC inverters like Veriable frequency drives (VFD)but again that would require a little bigger of a hilt ;D.  However with the use of VFD's in computers now for cooling fans, the technology is getting more compact.

You have defiantly put more thought into it then myself and I believe you’re on the right track. If you do end up building one I think for my own sake I'll stick to the polly blade. I like my limbs.
Great job Bodi
And welcome.



All good is just as flawed as all bad. True power lies somewhere in between.
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Offline Yoda

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Re: Real Saber Concepts...
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2007, 09:58:41 AM »
I think the power conversion would wind up "improving" as it was developed.

Just like the theoretical sabers described in the EU it would start as a backpack to power it and as
power technology improved it could for see it being reduced in size. ;)

But to get the blade working  :) that is the first step...

Realistically it would be hooked up to a much larger machine for generating the power as a cutting tool
as that would allow for a repeated controlled testing environment to expand on it from that point.

I think also more important is the considerations of how the energy it emits will affects it's user.
That will play a crucial role in it's "practical development" ;)

Or at least the hand held version :D


Offline GRAND MOFF TARKIN

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Re: Real Saber Concepts...
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2007, 12:00:56 PM »
If power is a problem, what about stun guns?

http://www.betterhomesecurity.com/_1,000,000_Volt_Small_Fry_Mini_Stun_Gun.php?ref=1mil

They get a million "claimed" volts out of three 3v batteries.


Offline bodi

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Re: Real Saber Concepts...
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2007, 01:35:27 PM »
Quote
If power is a problem, what about stun guns?

http://www.betterhomesecurity.com/_1,000,000_Volt_Small_Fry_Mini_Stun_Gun.php?ref=1mil

They get a million "claimed" volts out of three 3v batteries.



Hello, pianoman, good question.

In order to understand why this wouldn't work, you need to understand a little bit about the difference between volts, amps and watts.

voltage, measured in volts, is the amount of potential difference between the positive and negative sides of a circuit.

amperage, measured in amps, is the amount of current flowing through a circuit.

power, measured in watts is the actual amount of energy (or charge, or joules) flowing in a circuit over a certain amount of time.

you cannot express the power available in a circuit with volts or amps alone, because neither of these is an expression of power.

however, volts times amps = watts, which is an expression of power.

You can make almost any voltage you want, with transformers and multiplication circuits, but there's a trade off. Every time you make the voltage go up, you make the amperage go down (Ohm's Law). I won't get too technical here, but if you like there is wealth of information on the net concerning electronics/electricity and how it works. Use any of these terms to search.

Anyway, back to the stun guns. The power they have comes from those batteries, and this is limited, and is somewhere around milliwatts (thousandths of a watt). The circuit steps up the voltage, quite possibly to a million volts, but when it does, the amperage drops just as low as the voltage goes high, and so no matter what the voltage ends up being, if you take it times the amperage, you will always get the same amount of power out (milliwatts), or less.

One million volts at one millionth of an amp isn't too scary.

One million volts at one amp would vaporize you.

Now, as regards the saber design, it will require lots of energy, but much less than one might think, because it operation of cutting does not depend on brute force, so to speak, but rather on efficiency.

Think of a knife.

If you try to cut by pushing straight through what you're cutting, you'll more likely smash than cut. If you draw the sharp edge horizontally accross what you're cutting, on the other hand, it will slice through. Have you every seen those vibrating knives chefs often use? They cut like a dream, because they are moving that sharp surface back and forth many times a second, and it takes relatively little power to make a clean, deep cut.

In the same way, the tesloid thread in our blade is rotating at extremely high speeds, anywhere from approximately at least 50,000 to 100,000 revolutions per minute, or faster if we can get it to.

So, no, stun gun power supplies won't work, but thats ok. We have lots of other options...

peace,

bodi










« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 01:40:22 PM by bodi »

Offline GRAND MOFF TARKIN

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Re: Real Saber Concepts...
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2007, 01:46:25 PM »
I didn't think it would, but Im glad you could explain that. I had a slight understanding about it but not the exactly.

Heres a question to you Bodi,


 Maybe the power cells in the lightsaber aren't very large, or large ones aren't needed because it doesn't waste much energy. If the energy was looped down into the saber it could recharge it as it uses energy. Therefore you would only need enough power to start the cycle and then it could keep itself going?

Offline bodi

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Re: Real Saber Concepts...
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2007, 02:14:42 PM »
Quote
...large ones (power cells. sic) aren't needed because it doesn't waste much energy.

That's the goal to reach, yep!

Quote
If the energy was looped down into the saber it could recharge it as it uses energy. Therefore you would only need enough power to start the cycle and then it could keep itself going?

Another good question.

This, unfortunately, won't work. The tesloid thread is simply a conductor (although a very special and unusual one). If there were a way to recover the energy back out of the circuit, and use it again, you would have a perpetual motion machine of (I believe) the second class, which is prohibited by the laws of thermodynamics. Energy used is energy used.

Now, what one could do is to make the thing very efficient, so less power is needed, as stated above. This is what we will try to do.

peace,

bodi


Offline LANDO CALRISSIAN

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Re: Real Saber Concepts...
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2007, 03:45:46 PM »
Energy used is energy used, very true and thus the problem with a perpetual motion machine. There would have to be a generator to charge the amount energy loss. More space needed and today I don't know of any 1:1 electric generators available. This is why we pay so much for power from the electric companies.

However energy is not created or destroyed it only changes from one source to another. So if you could use a small amount of stored electrical energy to start a reactor that would change the energy around us (combo Tesla and Einstein theories) you could have an almost endless power potential the blade. This would be something like Ramjet technology. This would be also way above me. This is kind what I think would need to be done for space travel. Use what's rapidly available.

One thing I thought of is what if light particle could be bound together like fusion. Creating a solid. I know this is not today technology. I don't know how much damage that would do at the blade though. However robbing that much light to solidify a blade would probably cause a light Of issues to the environment around you.

P.S. That is why stunguns don’t kill. Not enough amperage.

 



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Offline bodi

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Re: Real Saber Concepts...
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2007, 05:18:42 PM »
Quote
So if you could use a small amount of stored electrical energy to start a reactor that would change the energy around us (combo Tesla and Einstein theories) you could have an almost endless power potential the blade. This would be something like Ramjet technology. This would be also way above me.


and me too!

Offline darthmorbius

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Re: Real Saber Concepts...
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2007, 06:13:38 PM »
Ah Nick Tesla! What a guy! Truly an Icon of the technological age!

In regards to a backpack sized power supply as Yoda mentioned. A good example of the size limitations would be the generators for modern plasma cutters. About 15 years ago, they required a power source the size of a Mini Cooper. Now they are quite compact; about the size of a Mid to full tower computer case.

If the power supply could be made workable for a design such as bodi's, then as Yoda stated, it could be a matter of a few years until you see the same type of scaling in the size.

This is a very interesting topic. I will be watching this with GREAT interest!

Offline vivan_cygna

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Re: Real Saber Concepts...
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2007, 08:42:10 PM »
Me and my friends were talking about magnetic suspension with a heated element about a year ago while we were at a science engineering competition.  The one thing we couldn't figure out was how you could use an acclerated particle thats inside a magnetic field to cut something without being released from the field and harming the area around it, that article you posted C3PO was quite interesting.  I believe there were universities that actually attempted something similar to what you posted.

I think it is the superheated material that cut things. The accelerated particles are just used to heat up and "enlarge" the material and are being bursted into, so that the material also served as the containment of the particles.

Yeah, it would be very interesting to find out what being researched at the universities.
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Offline Sidneyious

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Re: Real Saber Concepts...
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2007, 05:14:17 AM »
Ya know Ive been thinking and I would be happy if all out technology was abel to get us was something like the beating sticks the cops have in futurama.

Offline Yoda

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Re: Real Saber Concepts...
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2007, 05:16:55 AM »
Hmmmm energy conversion :o
A mini portable but not so nuclear reactor  ;)

could it be... conversion = acceleration or possibly acceleration = conversion

Conversion from acceleration would need to be self sustaining and limiting and hold containment
and retain form upon contact.
Sounds rather organic in nature as would be a "piece" of a lightning bolt.
But a bolt that is self grounding by reaching it's limit, thus a possible containment of length.


I think we still run into the factor of, Lightsaber = Glowing user :D


I keep getting drawn back to the possibility of a metallic compound being able to be the missing
element that makes it all stick ;)


 

retrousse