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FX-Sabers Discussion - Including a Gallery of custom sabers. => LED SABERS => Topic started by: mort on June 07, 2009, 01:34:40 AM
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Hi there,
I did some work on converting wavelength (nm) values to RGB, using a small program WavelengthToRGB http://miguelmoreno.net/sandbox/wavelengthtoRGB/
I have recently got interested in the saber scene, and managed to be lucky enough to get hold on a Master Yoda Graflex IV. The cyan colour caused me a bit of confusion in the beginning, so I decided to investigate the bin labelling for each Luxeon category, and I wanted to find a way to interpret this on screen with RGB colour data.
I took the min and max dominant (nm) value for each Luxeon bin, and took the halfway point between them to get my RGB values.
Please see the attached image, which shows the Luxeons grouped in colour category and then within that by bin code.
Obviously this is only concerning shade/hue, no intensity/luminosity has been taken into account... If someone knows how I could do this using the data from Lumileds and then in Photoshop, please let me know.
Hope it helps some people, when looking for a certain shade, remember RGB conversion will never be 100% accurate, and as such, this is only a guide.
Make sure your monitor is calibrated as best you can.
(https://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg10.imageshack.us%2Fimg10%2F5170%2Fluxeonbincodeanalysis.png&hash=6ce195476523e185fb742543142c8ce834e2b9f4) (http://img10.imageshack.us/i/luxeonbincodeanalysis.png/)
ROYAL BLUE
Bin Code Min (nm) Avg (nm) Max (nm) RGB on Avg
3 440 443 445 0,15,255
4 445 448 450 0,41,255
5 450 453 455 0,66,255
6 455 458 460 0,92,255
7 460 463 465 0,117,255
8 465 468 470 0,143,255
BLUE
Bin Code Min (nm) Avg (nm) Max (nm) RGB on Avg
1 460 463 465 0,117,255
2 465 468 470 0,143,255
3 470 473 475 0,168,255
4 475 478 480 0,194,255
5 480 483 485 0,219,255
6 485 488 490 0,245,255
CYAN
Bin Code Min (nm) Avg (nm) Max (nm) RGB on Avg
1 490 493 495 0,255,217
2 495 498 500 0,255,153
3 500 503 505 0,255,89
4 505 508 510 0,255,26
5 510 513 515 11,255,0
6 515 518 520 29,255,0
GREEN
Bin Code Min (nm) Avg (nm) Max (nm) RGB on Avg
1 520 523 525 47,255,0
2 525 528 530 66,255,0
3 530 533 535 84,255,0
4 535 538 540 102,255,0
5 540 543 545 120,255,0
6 545 548 550 138,255,0
AMBER Luxeon K2, III
Bin Code Min (nm) Avg (nm) Max (nm) RGB on Avg
1 584.5 586 587 255,231,0
2 587 588 589.5 255,224,0
4 589.5 591 592 255,212,0
6 592 593 594.5 255,204,0
7 594.5 596 597 255,192,0
RED/RED-ORANGE Luxeon K2, III
Bin Code Min (nm) Avg (nm) Max (nm) RGB on Avg
2 613.5 617 620.5 255,110,0
4 620.5 626 631 255,75,0
5 631 638 645 255,27,0
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here is a similar one for the Seoul P4 products, this bin information was taken from March 2008, so I believe it still applies.....
(https://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg197.imageshack.us%2Fimg197%2F8519%2Fseoulp4.png&hash=bf0e1b7be93a900bbb1ac0468e233e85fa7f68c3) (http://img197.imageshack.us/i/seoulp4.png/)
BLUE
Bin Code Min (nm) Avg (nm) Max (nm) RGB on Avg
BB1 455 458 460 0,92,255
BB2 460 463 465 0,117,255
BB3 465 468 470 0,143,255
BB4 470 473 475 0,168,255
GREEN
Bin Code Min (nm) Avg (nm) Max (nm) RGB on Avg
GG1 520 523 525 47,255,0
GG2 525 528 530 66,255,0
GG3 530 533 535 84,255,0
RED
Bin Code Min (nm) Avg (nm) Max (nm) RGB on Avg
RR1 618 622 625 255,90,0
RR2 625 629 632 255,63,0
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:o
Ok, a thread like this needs to be stickied. Mort i sent you a PM. Bravo man, BRA VO.
Jim aka Avv
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Very nice idea and good job! This deserves a sticky.
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Very well done. I've always wanted to see a visual comparision and go less off just opinion and pictures of sabers with what I hoped was the right color I was looking at. This helps a tons. Definitely needs to be stickied!
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Very interesting and useful (I've been searching for something like this). Would be perfect if we could do some proper photo shooting with every type of BIN to add to that.
I think the CYAN BIN shades are a little tricky compared to the others (remember seeing BIN 2 and BIN 3 and it looked more "in beetween" cyan and green than what's shown here... and yes my screen is professionally calibrated)
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Yeah Cyan just looks green in bins 3+. I'm not noticing much difference between the different P4 greens, maybe it's just my moniter?
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I was wondering what all the Bin numbers were about. Thank you. Another vote for this one to be stickied.
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LOL...guys, if you look at the top of the thread on the very left side, you notice that it's already been stickied. ;)
-Kyp
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LOL...guys, if you look at the top of the thread on the very left side, you notice that it's already been stickied. ;)
-Kyp
Yeah I noticed that right after my post. :D :D :) ;)
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:o :o :o
Very useful..thanks, now the difference on BIN codes is much clear to me :D
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This is pretty useful. Understandably each PC monitor views colors a little different, but this gives a good representation of how much difference between shades there are.
Good job on this!
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Good stuff, dude. Nice work.
This will be helpful to many people. :)
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Great work! Thanks so much, Mort! 8)
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Very interesting and useful (I've been searching for something like this). Would be perfect if we could do some proper photo shooting with every type of BIN to add to that.
I think the CYAN BIN shades are a little tricky compared to the others (remember seeing BIN 2 and BIN 3 and it looked more "in beetween" cyan and green than what's shown here... and yes my screen is professionally calibrated)
Yes I couldn't agree more about the Cyan shades, If you download the wavelengthtorgb program, you will see that the hue difference even between 490 and 505 varies greatly between perceived blue and green. I had to take a typical/average value for my bin chart, that was inbetween the min and dominant nm values for the particular bin, so I do agree that the Cyan shades are more open to interpretation.
This is only meant to be a rough guide, and it's better to use the wavelengthtorgb program to move between the min and max nm values for the bin you are intersted in, to get more of an overall idea.
e.g. with Cyan BIN2, I would suggest moving thes slider from 495 to 500 to get a feel for the shade.
Yeah Cyan just looks green in bins 3+. I'm not noticing much difference between the different P4 greens, maybe it's just my moniter?
Hi Wookie, It's my understanding that the Seoul P4 greens are very similar across the bin range. I can assure you that the value for the red component does change between them, but only in small increments, 47, 66, 84.
I would believe that in real life the difference would be more noticeable, as the human eye has alot more dynamic range than a monitor's RGB color space interpretation.
I'm currently trying to source as many different bin's as I can, and take photos of them all for real, but I don't know how realistic it will be for me to source them all, and the hardest think will be controlling the photography, although I do have an SLR which I can force in manual mode for exposure etc.
Yeah Cyan just looks green in bins 3+. I'm not noticing much difference between the different P4 greens, maybe it's just my moniter?
I might have read your message incorrectly, apologies if so, but I do understand that all Cyan's above bin2 are considered green, even to the human eye. I think Tim from TCSS, only stocks Cyan in bin1 and bin2, and sells bin3+ as green.
From looking at my charts, I reckon Cyan bin6 would be a very nice colour in real life, but i'm having no luck finding one of them. Anyone ever seen a bin4/bin5/bin6 cyan in real life ? what's it like ?
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Please refrain from triple posting, Mort. It is possible to use multiple quotes in a single post using the "modify" button.
I actually have seen a cyan bin 6 in person...they are a nice minty green color. I used three or four of them last year in some of my Brass Sabers. They actually looked clser to the bin 3 on your color chart.
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Apologies for the triple posting :(
thinking about this, I might revise my chart, to show a gradient fill in RGB, between the min (nm) RGB value and the max (nm) RGB value, take this example of Cyan bin1 and Cyan bin2. This might, in the long run, be a bit more helpful ?
This shows bin 1, fading from wavelength 490nm to 495nm
and for bin2, shows 495nm to 500nm
lowest (min) value at bottom of blade.... This does, sort of, go against what I am trying to achieve, but at least it still shows the potential variance in hue by bin category...
(https://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg38.imageshack.us%2Fimg38%2F7597%2Fcyan.png&hash=ec63925865371d7c999fd1b753295882ed804a9d) (http://img38.imageshack.us/i/cyan.png/)
Please refrain from triple posting, Mort. It is possible to use multiple quotes in a single post using the "modify" button.
I actually have seen a cyan bin 6 in person...they are a nice minty green color. I used three or four of them last year in some of my Brass Sabers. They actually looked clser to the bin 3 on your color chart.
Thanks for the information, looks like I need to take luminosity values into account as well. I'm some what disappointed to hear that the Cyan bin6 looks closer to bin3.. colour is so open to different perception isnt it.
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yeah, it makes a difference. I have some pictures somewhere of what the color actually looked like in my photobucket account...i'll see if i can find them.
EDIT:
Here's one:
(https://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi119.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo141%2FJay-gon_Jinn%2FMy%2520Brass%2520Sabers%25202%2520and%25203%2FBrass%2520Sabers%25204%25205%25206%2520and%25207%2F76136fe9.jpg&hash=bc3cebeff6bbb3806739cc87602702a35082049a) (http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o141/Jay-gon_Jinn/My%20Brass%20Sabers%202%20and%203/Brass%20Sabers%204%205%206%20and%207/76136fe9.jpg)
and another:
(https://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi119.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo141%2FJay-gon_Jinn%2FMy%2520Brass%2520Sabers%25202%2520and%25203%2FBrass%2520Sabers%25204%25205%25206%2520and%25207%2F100_2137.jpg&hash=d65ba92e7013c526bafc3d201396c0a38460a0d3) (http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o141/Jay-gon_Jinn/My%20Brass%20Sabers%202%20and%203/Brass%20Sabers%204%205%206%20and%207/100_2137.jpg)
One more:
(https://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi119.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo141%2FJay-gon_Jinn%2FChrome%2520Saber%25204%2Fc7b06569.jpg&hash=c4fb4e0d97a27c4e5715e8d1ccdf9b00a3785007) (http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o141/Jay-gon_Jinn/Chrome%20Saber%204/c7b06569.jpg)
The last one:
(https://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi119.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo141%2FJay-gon_Jinn%2FChrome%2520Saber%25205%2Fc99cf013.jpg&hash=4ea84c79eb3043c700fe0b3dbebed3d8d03d04f1) (http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o141/Jay-gon_Jinn/Chrome%20Saber%205/c99cf013.jpg)
Those were all bin 6 Cyan led's that I had ordered from LEDsupply. I didn't ask for bin 1's and those were what I got.
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Wow ! that does look to be an amazing colour indeed, but I do see what you mean about being closer to my bin3 cyan example, can you give me more information on the type of luxeon, and the mA it was driven at please ?
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I wish I could give you that information, but I do not have the sabers anymore, I sold them all. They were all Luxeon III's, and I ran them on the MR boards that were in the sabers. Each board delivers a different amount of current and voltage to the led's so I'm not sure what they were being run at. They were all getting 6 volts from the battery packs, and were probably being over-driven by the boards as well. I didn't take any readings on the meter for them, but I think member XsaberX has a topic or a post here somewhere where he measured the voltage and current outputs of MR boards running on 4 batteries instead of the stock 3.
EDIT:
I found the topic that xsaberx posted his information about the MR board drive currents in:
http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?topic=13978.0
all of the above pictures of the bin 6 cyan were powered by a Luke ROTJ board, but with a 6 volt power supply....I wish I had one to test for you to get the accurate results for it. All of my MR boards are Anakin ROTS's, and my cyan Luxeon III's are bin 1's.
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Thank you very much Mort this information is extremely useful, especially the gradient fill cyan...KUDOS!
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Fantastic, insightful thread. I add my vote for Sticky.
I can tell you from experience that at 1200ma, a Lux III Cyan B5 and B6 are "Winterfresh" green to my eye, or "Minty" as QGJ put it. 'Not quite Green Giant Green, but definitely on the leafy side :)
Which brings up a good point: If you're ever ordering from LEDSupply, call them first and verify the Bin. The help desk is very nice, and it sure beats waiting until you plug them in to discover what bin you received. That's how I got my LuxV Cyan B1s.
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Fantastic, insightful thread. I add my vote for Sticky.
I can tell you from experience that at 1200ma, a Lux III Cyan B5 and B6 are "Winterfresh" green to my eye, or "Minty" as QGJ put it. 'Not quite Green Giant Green, but definitely on the leafy side :)
Which brings up a good point: If you're ever ordering from LEDSupply, call them first and verify the Bin. The help desk is very nice, and it sure beats waiting until you plug them in to discover what bin you received. That's how I got my LuxV Cyan B1s.
Thanks Goodman
When you fire up your LuxV Cyan B1s at 750-1000mA - in a darkened room with little ambient light, what colour would you say it's closest to ?
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this was a very helpful thread thanks a lot!! see i always assumed that the red led's i had were a higher bin, therefore a little more orange-ish red.. i always wanted more of a crimson.. but they are kind of opposite it seems. cause a low bin blue is a deeper shade than a higher bin. so i just assumed that red followed that giude line also... hmm go figure :P how can you tell which bin your getting when you order an led?
thanks, MTFBWY
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this was a very helpful thread thanks a lot!! see i always assumed that the red led's i had were a higher bin, therefore a little more orange-ish red.. i always wanted more of a crimson.. but they are kind of opposite it seems. cause a low bin blue is a deeper shade than a higher bin. so i just assumed that red followed that giude line also... hmm go figure :P how can you tell which bin your getting when you order an led?
thanks, MTFBWY
Under normal circumstances, you cannot. It does depend on where you order your LEDs and what type of quantity you buy in. Manufacturers who buy in large quantities can sometimes specify bins. If you purchase from TCSS, you might try emailing Tim in advance to see if he has a certain bin and, if he does, if he would put it aside for your order. Most LED companies will not do this for an order of just an LED or two, but because TCSS is a self-owned business who caters to the saber community, you will find Tim is often very accomodating!
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sweet i thought i had blue lux III for my current build..thanx to this thread i did some researching and there not..there royal blue LR3C the darkest hue of royal blue which is so much sweeter!
great thread.
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I think this is slightly wrong, on the P4s.. The reds seem a little redder than they look on the screen.
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Great work! Thanks so much
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Has anyone ever tried using a Tri-Star? IT WOULD SEEM TO ME that the tri-stars would not only triple your lumen output, but also possibly give you a "cleaner" or more accurate color. If I'm mistaken in any way, PLEASE inform me - I'm very new to construction and am trying to find the absolute brightest, truest, cyan blade possible...