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Offline Kanjiklub

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Re: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi Discussion (Spoiler Alerts)
« Reply #45 on: December 25, 2017, 05:23:54 PM »
This movie had flaws, built not awful.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 12:05:51 AM by Kanjiklub »

Offline Scruffy Nerf Herder

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Re: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi Discussion (Spoiler Alerts)
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2018, 12:05:06 PM »
So, after another sabbatical from this forum I'm back and have formed my opinion of TLJ...well, at least 95% formed.  Could be a long read, so if you're still reading at the end, thanks!

So JJ Abrams left us with many unanswered questions (as any good intro to a trilogy should do) and what did Rian Johnson do with most of them?  He handled them exactly as Luke handled his old light saber when Rey handed it to him.  Chucked over the shoulder without so much as a second thought.

Now, to expound on this...

So what we have here is basically a 2.5 hour car chase scene in space....at 15 mph.  Much akin to the steamroller scene in Austin Powers IMOM.  And mixed in with that painfully dull setting was Rey learning absolutely nothing about the force she didn't already figure out, and 30 minutes of wasted time on Canto Bight that, if removed, would have zero impact on the outcome.

Sooooo many plot holes...

1. Adm. Holdo withholding the Resistance's escape plan from Poe Dameron.  WHY?  In what farcical world would a leader keep that information secret when their very lives depended on everyone working together to escape the FO?  I've been in the military for 22+ years...many of those working in small operational units.  There's one thing we all know...you don't play "I've got a secret" because "I've got a secret" gets people killed.

2. DJ, how in the Same Hades did he know the resistance was using cloaking technology?  Rose and Finn didn't know...so how did he find out...and why did he need anything from Rose and Finn if he already had the means to escape Canto Bight, the knowledge of Resistance Plans, and the ability to sell that knowledge for financial gain?

3. Adm. Holdo take 2.  If she knew that flying a starship into another starship at lightspeed would disable it...why didn't they do that with the first two ships that ran out of fuel?

4. First Order, so for 2.5 hours not one flipping Admiral or even a deckhand thought of "why don't we have a couple Star Destroyers lightspeed jump in front of the resistance and cut them off?

5. Luke...why didn't he just pull his X-wing out of the water, put the panel back on and fly to Crait?  Secondly, if he was an astral projection, with no physical presence...how was Leia and subsequently Kylo able to hold the MF dice?

6. Why is Finn even a character?  He's completely useless to the story...should've let him commit suicide on Crait...along with Rose who is also a wasted character.  Neither of them did anything remotely significant to the story in TLJ.

7. Leia...if she's so strong in the force to Mary Poppins her almost dead body back into the ship...why the xxx couldn't she lift the rocks on Crait herself to allow an escape?

8. Snoke...if he's so powerful in the dark side and already knew Kylo was weak...how could he not sense Kylo's impending betrayal?

Character issues:

Phasma....wasted character.  She went out like Boba Fett.  Complete waste of such good potential for a storyline.

Finn/Rose love story...this is so on the nose it's not even funny.  We're supposed to believe they fall for each other because she's a social justice warrior and he's finally picked a side?

Kylo Ren....I still have no feeling that his motivation is apparent or if he even knows what he's doing.

Luke...Mark Hammil said it himself...I fundamentally disagree with everything Rian did to that character.

Chewbacca...where's his mean streak...they castrated him when he felt guilty for almost eating a Porg.  Bring back the big furry oaf that rips people's arms off.

Armitage Hux...seriously?  How did this guy become a General?  He's a pathetic man-child who was competing against Kylo Ren for Snoke's love.


Ok, enough of the complaint-fest.  Here's where the movie shines.

Rey is having to decide for herself where she fits in the galaxy, and she's taking ownership of that.  The obvious SJW nonsense aside, the underlying theme of "anyone can be someone" is consistent with the SW universe (Anakin was a nobody, Luke was a nobody until we found out who daddy was)  Kylo Ren has removed his only obstacle to being what he thinks he's meant to be (except for Rey).  It's up to him now as well to decide where his goes.

Yep, my Cons list is longer than my Pro list.  As far as SW is concerned, it was a colossal mess.  As a movie, it was good/great....4 of 5.  The visual spectacle, the use silent moments when the Raddus smashed through Snoke's ship, the grand scale of open scenes...all beautifully made.



And at the end...what I'm left with is...What is there to bring me back to see Ep IX?  I honestly feel like I have no imputus to see the final act.  And that's the worst part.  All I can see is when Disney bought the SWU it became about money, and not story-telling...and those of us who grew up loving this franchise are being snuffed out...as Kylo Ren said.

Offline Master Mithric

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Re: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi Discussion (Spoiler Alerts)
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2018, 09:41:04 AM »
I've seen TLJ a few times now. At first, I left the theater completely disappointed in the hype that had been built around this movie, especially with everything that was being said at Celebration. After watching the next couple times, I already knew what to expect so I was able to just sit and watch the movie for what it was. I still in no way love this one, but I don't hate it as much as I did after the first viewing. Some people are extremely upset about not knowing about Rey's family. I could honestly care less. Why does every force user have to come from special family? Is it really that freaking hard to accept if Rey really did come from a family that were nobodies?

Despite how good or bad this movie was, I still don't feel it deserves majority of the hate that it is being shown. There were some great visuals throughout the movie, and there were some great scenes, as well as things they did not have to show, such as the red Kyber crystal necklace hanging in Luke's hut or R2 showing the message of Leia from ANH. I thought Rey & Kylo had much better chemistry vs Rey & Finn. There were also things we haven't seen on screen yet when it comes to the force, such the "mind bridge" between Rey and Kylo or Luke projecting himself onto another planet that was x amount of miles away. 

As much as I appreciate those scenes, I still find myself questioning why some things were done how they were. Some of these are just me being picky but anyways:

1) Unless they've changed their minds about placing her in Ep. IX, why not kill off Leia when she was sucked out of the ship instead of leaving the character in to have to somehow write off.

2) Why they left people on the ships that ran out of fuel knowing they're going to be destroyed.

3) Leia b****** at Poe for being reckless and causing the deaths of many resistance fighters in the early part of the movie, yet Adm. Holdo left everyone out of the plan knowing Poe will just go off and do the same irrational thing they just yelled at him for doing.

4) If they're just going to allow themselves to be killed when the ship runs out of fuel, why didn't they just save just enough fuel and use those ships to do exactly what Adm. Holdo done to begin with.

5) Similar to how everyone complained about Rey's abilities in TFA, where's Leia learn to use the force to the extent she did? She showed no hint of being able to use the force in ROTJ or TFA except being able to "feel" someone, yet she was able to use the force to Mary Poppins herself from the vacuum of space back to the ship. As Scruffy just mentioned, if she's that powerful, why couldn't she even attempt to move the rocks at the end of the cave? My only assumption on this one is to show how strong Rey is becoming?

6) I understand why Luke made himself look younger in his projection, but if the writers were detailed enough to include such things as Yoda's spirit and even the Kyber crystal necklace, why give Luke the graflex? Was it that hard to give him his ROTJ hilt? Only assumption I have is he felt "more like Luke Skywalker" when he had the graflex vs his last act when he had his other saber.
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Offline Psab Keel

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Re: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi Discussion (Spoiler Alerts)
« Reply #48 on: January 09, 2018, 11:13:12 PM »
So what is Rey's conflict then?  She wants to belong somewhere?  I mean this film and in turn this new trilogy feels so disjointed in that Rey, Finn, and Poe (our new Han, Luke, and Leia) never have any scenes together until the very end. 

Even the prequels at least got this right in that Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padme had scenes together so that you could get the sense that they were friends.  Even if the scenes didn't always work, at least you had that comradery implied because they shared screen time together. 

Poe doesn't even meet Rey until the end of TLJ when she's lifting the boulders from the back of the cave.  So now the second act of the new trilogy is over and one our principles is only NOW meeting our protagonist?  One of the reasons why we root for Luke, Leia and Han in the OT is because we've witnessed them go through the war together and have watched them grow together as a result.

The only link Poe and Rey have is Finn.  Finn knows both of them, but they don't know each other.  It makes for a hard sell when it comes to caring about these characters. 

Plus in all those years spent on that island, Luke learned NOTHING new about the Force that we don't already know?  I mean if he didn't want anything to do with the conflict then why in a galaxy far, far away would he go THERE?

It would make sense if he was bitter because he went there looking for answers on how to save his nephew but could find none.  THAT would at least make logical sense and could play into the idea of Luke having given up.  Even his motivation is not clear at all in this movie.

What makes NO sense is that Luke would go to a planet where all he is surrounded by is the Force, only to have rejected it entirely, and no it's not clever that it's ironic.  Not in the least.  It's just stupid. 
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Offline IceSaber

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Re: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi Discussion (Spoiler Alerts)
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2018, 02:11:44 AM »
Really liked:
  • Luke being luke - When he saw R2 or had his "young luke" personality moments come out. Great throwbacks but not enough.
  • Luke & Yoda
  • Rey and Kylo throne room fight
  • Kylo's dual
  • Poe in general
  • Leia and Lukes moments together
  • The build up to Luke V Kylo
  • Throwback to older music tracks during certain scenes
  • A few redeeming scenes that added some emotion that feels very Star Wars. Second watch will remind me what they were.
  • Lightsaber closups!

Liked:
  • Kylo's intentions in throne room being masked before stabbing snoke.
  • The intention to try to make a throwback to the Cantina and Alien life with the Casino part of the movie
  • Kylo not shooting Leia when he could have

Disliked:
  • Casino arc was generally boring and pointless
  • No explenation about whether he was the correct code breaker or the guy with the flower was.
  • Lukes motivation in general (until the very end)
  • Leia's "mary poppins" moment without a single explanation.
  • The darkside of the island only had a scary hole and mirror.
  • Gravity in space at the start with the bombs..
  • Rose kissing Finn randomly? did she die?
  • How did Finn and Rose make it back into the cave at the end?
  • How did the First Order become so powerful after TFA?
  • How did Rey get back into the Millenium Falcon after Snokes ship?

Hated:
  • Luke died.. which should not have happened until at least episode 9.
  • Luke didn't get to properly fight or showcase his power in a wise and powerful way.
  • Force projection across the galaxy?!
  • No real Luke saber battles
  • Rey besting luke in a staff battle
  • Snoke dying without having any character development or having accomplished anything of note.
  • Dropped TFA plot points - Rey's parents, Snokes importance and background, Kylo & Rey's potential connection outside of balancing the force, Luke saving the rebelion and his map, knights of Ren.
  • Screwed up TLJ plot - Snoke was pointless, Luke dying from too much force use, Kylo killing other students for no reason.
  • Lukes moping around
  • Lukes view on Jedi ending
  • Luke trying to kill Kylo
  • Rey's parentage.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 02:13:51 AM by IceSaber »

Offline WEDGE ANTILLES

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Re: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi Discussion (Spoiler Alerts)
« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2018, 06:58:59 PM »

Unless they've changed their minds about placing her in Ep. IX, why not kill off Leia when she was sucked out of the ship instead of leaving the character in to have to somehow write off.


because of the final act when Luke goes to the planet to save leia. 
this end scene doesn't work without her in it; Luke has no reason to save these people. 
when Carrie died, Rian decided to leave his entire movie intact.. regardless of the impact on the overall franchise. 
he didin't want to change his entire movie, once it was already finished.  he would have been forced to rewrite the entire ending. 
instead: it falls to the next writer to pick up the pieces. LOL  this was probably the best choice. the movie doesn't work if Leia dies in space.
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Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned, and Luke doesn't get married..."
- George Lucas

Offline WEDGE ANTILLES

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Re: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi Discussion (Spoiler Alerts)
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2018, 07:19:04 PM »
So what is Rey's conflict then?  She wants to belong somewhere?  I mean this film and in turn this new trilogy feels so disjointed in that Rey, Finn, and Poe (our new Han, Luke, and Leia) never have any scenes together until the very end. 

Even the prequels at least got this right in that Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padme had scenes together so that you could get the sense that they were friends.  Even if the scenes didn't always work, at least you had that comradery implied because they shared screen time together. 

Poe doesn't even meet Rey until the end of TLJ when she's lifting the boulders from the back of the cave.  So now the second act of the new trilogy is over and one our principles is only NOW meeting our protagonist?  One of the reasons why we root for Luke, Leia and Han in the OT is because we've witnessed them go through the war together and have watched them grow together as a result.

The only link Poe and Rey have is Finn.  Finn knows both of them, but they don't know each other.  It makes for a hard sell when it comes to caring about these characters. 

Plus in all those years spent on that island, Luke learned NOTHING new about the Force that we don't already know?  I mean if he didn't want anything to do with the conflict then why in a galaxy far, far away would he go THERE?

It would make sense if he was bitter because he went there looking for answers on how to save his nephew but could find none.  THAT would at least make logical sense and could play into the idea of Luke having given up.  Even his motivation is not clear at all in this movie.

What makes NO sense is that Luke would go to a planet where all he is surrounded by is the Force, only to have rejected it entirely, and no it's not clever that it's ironic.  Not in the least.  It's just stupid. 
-

not that I necessarily agree with Luke Arc.. (because I don't)..  this was my take on it:

Luke went to the Tree Planet to seek out the very root of the Jedi Order and he didn't find anything helpful.  He concluded that the Darkside was a shadow, created by the light.. light always makes shadows.  He felt responsible for it, and he decided to take himself out of the equation: no more Jedi Knights.  He felt that this would cause the darkside to lose power and eventually fade away.  He felt 'where there is light there will always be dark'; his small light could not illuminate the entire galaxy afterall; his small candle was only creating 'shadows'.  So he shut himself off from the force, ensuring that there would be no lightside users, and therefore no shadows rising up to meet them.  He had decided that 'hero worship' of the Jedi Order (and of the Luke Skywalker Myth) was detrimental to the galaxy BECAUSE it spawned "supervillains" (the way Batman SPAWNED the Joker -- Evil rises to meet Good).

but instead of the shadow losing strength in the absence of the light,  Kylo kept training and got stronger in the darkside.  Snoke says: Luke had it backwards:  light always rises to meet dark. (not vice versa) SO: as Kylo trained harder and got stronger (and BECAUSE Luke had shut himself off from the force) the Force spontaneously "awoke" in a new lightside user.  This was Rey.  Rey's power in the force is directly reflective of Kylo's power in the force...   as He trains, She gets stronger. which is HOW she got so strong in the force, without trying. (what message this sends to young girls? I have no idea. the boy trains and the girl gets stronger).   Snoke says all of this with his own words.

in the end Luke finally realizes he had it backwards. he shows up at the end to cast a light on the shadow with a demonstration of Jedi Power.  this creates a new wave of "hero worship" of the 'luke skywalker myth', which can be seen in the stable boy example at the end.  Luke provides a new spark which will ignite a new rebellion.  and this demonstration of Jedi Power gives Rey credibility in the eyes of people like Poe.  it gives them "Hope".



or something like that :P LOL
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 07:26:45 PM by WEDGE ANTILLES »
"The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story.
Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned, and Luke doesn't get married..."
- George Lucas

Offline Psab Keel

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Re: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi Discussion (Spoiler Alerts)
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2018, 11:11:33 PM »
I see what you're saying but I think what Rian Johnson did with Luke shows a lack of understanding of who Luke is as a character.

Luke was an archetypal every man who knew right from wrong.  He never needed to be(or should be) morally ambiguous.  That's Han Solo.  Not Luke Skywalker.  I think a lot of the people who think that Luke is now a better character are often the same people who never related to him from the beginning.  One of the key elements of Star Wars that worked so powerfully was that the lines between good and evil were so clearly drawn.  There are tons of movies with antiheroes, does Luke need to be one now too? 

It strikes me as a move to make the film "current" to make it appealing to audiences rather than making a choice that will ultimately stand the test of time, which is the difference between marketing and art.  The original films may have been commercially successful but resisted the urge to follow current social conventions in order to tell a story with a theme so powerful that we are still debating it over 40 years later.

For Luke to even consider murdering his nephew in his sleep was completely out of character. It would have made FAR more sense if Luke tried to help Ben resist evil but was attacked. The resulting fight would have put Luke on the defensive. It's the same problem I had with Obi-Wan confronting Anakin in ROTS.  I guess killing anyone who decides to turn to the Dark Side is the Jedi way?  Where is the nobility in that? So much for being the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy.  Luke was willing to die to save Vader despite his teachers telling him otherwise.  What could Ben have possibly done to convince Luke that he was beyond saving?

Wouldn't it have made more sense if Luke went to Ach-To to try and find a way to save Ben only to learn he couldn't be redeemed? Plus they missed a GREAT opportunity of Luke reacting to the news of Han's death.  Showing Luke mourning would have only compounded his guilt because his failure with Ben led to Han's death. That addition would have added to the story and deepened the character without changing who is at his core.

As it stands we didn't learn anything new about the Force, which seems like a missed opportunity considering Luke was looking for the first Jedi temple. Why? So he could destroy it all anyway? Wouldn't it have made more sense if Luke was so frustrated at his own failings that when he goes to burn it all Rey stops him and makes him realize the error of his ways?  This would have also given Rey a chance to grow as a character by learning from Luke's mistakes.  The way the movie stands Rey leaves Luke because she isn't getting anywhere with him and just leaves out of frustration. 

Subverting audience expectations is not a bad thing but I think that's this film's greatest weakness because it took every opportunity to answer a question or explore a character and turned it into a joke, or just glossed over it too quickly without letting the characters explore it and grow as a result. The First Order just mercilessly annihilated the Resistance and they made jokes all the way through the movie, so I'm not sure how hopeful the next episode could possibly be given how this one ended.

There isn't much to really cover in Episode 9. What will the conflict be now?  Kylo is beyond saving, so what will the internal conflict be? Sure there will be a duel, but what will the emotional impact be without that underlying tension that is motivating the characters to fight one another?  At this point who cares?   Luke may appear as a Force ghost to train Rey, but what could he teach her that she doesn't already know?  She just knows how to use the Force with no training whatsoever, so how is it that we as the audience are able to relate to her? 

She never struggles with it.  She never fails in her use of it.  She is never tempted to use it for evil.   Ultimately it robs us of any satisfying conclusion to the story because it will feel unearned.  No conflict, no story.  It's that simple.  I forgave TFA for not explaining her abilities in the hope that it would be explored in the next chapter.  Since that never happened, I can see why people had such issues with her in TFA.  It's a shame too because she's a very likeable character in that film and I empathized with her struggle in the beginning of that movie. 

In a strange way I almost feel liberated by my disappointment in TLJ. I think I may finally be to a point where I don't really care what they do with the series any more. I will still see the new films but I will be viewing them as a casual movie goer will. Like the Marvel films for me they will be good or bad and they will more than likely be forgotten in a week.

Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi have all stood the test of time. These movies will always be near and dear to my heart and I will ALWAYS be a fan of them.

It's just a shame that it's taken me so long to get here.






Offline IceSaber

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Re: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi Discussion (Spoiler Alerts)
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2018, 04:05:11 AM »
I thought I was done with expressing what I disliked about TLJ but here I am! lol

SO: as Kylo trained harder and got stronger (and BECAUSE Luke had shut himself off from the force) the Force spontaneously "awoke" in a new lightside user.  This was Rey.  Rey's power in the force is directly reflective of Kylo's power in the force...   as He trains, She gets stronger. which is HOW she got so strong in the force, without trying. (what message this sends to young girls? I have no idea. the boy trains and the girl gets stronger).   Snoke says all of this with his own words.

in the end Luke finally realizes he had it backwards. he shows up at the end to cast a light on the shadow with a demonstration of Jedi Power.  this creates a new wave of "hero worship" of the 'luke skywalker myth', which can be seen in the stable boy example at the end.  Luke provides a new spark which will ignite a new rebellion.  and this demonstration of Jedi Power gives Rey credibility in the eyes of people like Poe.  it gives them "Hope".

I agree with everything you said BEFORE this section of your post above. The reason for Luke being a recluse makes sensee the way you described it but it was never expressed properly in the movie. All he said is "I came here to die". If he went to the temple to seek knowledge and lost his way that's fine I guess (though I would have loved for him to have been training in isolation). But what I can't get past is how he didn't seem to care about Hans death or Leia, or anybody else for that matter.

The "light rising to meet the dark" is something that would have been great for Yoda to say to Luke in the scene where the temple burned. That should have been the moment Luke realises the error of his ways and pulls the X-wing out of the sea and fly to save the resistance. His reuinion with Leia was still pretty great but the fact that he wasn't really there was cheap and tacky in my opinion. It's also quite cowardly and demonstrates nothing but the directors lack of understanding of who Luke is or what he would choose to do in that situation. He RUSHED to fight Vader to save his friends in RoTJ in spite of the great Jedi Master Yoda telling him not to. In TLJ he decided to sit on a rock and meditate himself there..

I see what you're saying but I think what Rian Johnson did with Luke shows a lack of understanding of who Luke is as a character.

Luke was an archetypal every man who knew right from wrong.  He never needed to be(or should be) morally ambiguous.  That's Han Solo.  Not Luke Skywalker.  I think a lot of the people who think that Luke is now a better character are often the same people who never related to him from the beginning.  One of the key elements of Star Wars that worked so powerfully was that the lines between good and evil were so clearly drawn.  There are tons of movies with antiheroes, does Luke need to be one now too? 

It strikes me as a move to make the film "current" to make it appealing to audiences rather than making a choice that will ultimately stand the test of time, which is the difference between marketing and art.  The original films may have been commercially successful but resisted the urge to follow current social conventions in order to tell a story with a theme so powerful that we are still debating it over 40 years later.

Completely agree. The problem with Star Wars, even in the prequels is that it's never been clear about how someone leaves the light, and goes to the darkside. Even Anakin just seemed to change instantly. One minute he was a Jedi and the next he's like "yes master, 3 bags full master" lol. I will say that Anakins motivation of saving Padme's life was a powerful reason to turn but we all know it wasn't executed properly in the Prequels. With TLJ they had another chance to show how Kylo went dark. AAAaaaand the reason is... because his uncle was about to kill him LOL. It sounds comical to me. It never showed why the dark side was growing within him, what drew him towards it. Granted we see the "trigger moment" but thats never enough. There was nothing about how Snoke seduced Kylo like the Emperor did Vader. The Emperor was in Anakins life for a while, but Snoke appears to have never actually met Kylo at all. The motivation for him to turn to the dark just wasn't there. Rian wrote a crappy script to explain it and destroyed the most beloved character of the Star Wars franchise in order to execute Ben's transition from Light to Dark.

Offline Psab Keel

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Re: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi Discussion (Spoiler Alerts)
« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2018, 08:09:45 PM »
I felt the same way.  If we knew more about his fall to the dark side then perhaps they could have fleshed that idea out more in terms of how Luke would factor into all of it.

I was never totally opposed to the idea of WHY Anakin turned to the dark side, it was more the way it was executed on film that left me feeling disappointed.  Had they shown Palapatine teaching Anakin how to regenerate life with the dark side of the Force it would have made more sense than him just saying "if we work together I'm sure we could discover the secret."  Which as it stands Anakin should have been totally pissed off at Palpatine for tricking him if he had no idea HOW to save Padme from death.

Perhaps if Palpatine showed him how to cheat death, but that the effect was either temporary or degenerative and corrupted a person then at least we could have a sense at what the dark side of the Force actually was capable of.  As it stands they never really delved even slightly into what the advantage of using the dark side would be.  All we know is that it's tempting and it's powerful.  But why is the question?


Offline jbkuma

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Re: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi Discussion (Spoiler Alerts)
« Reply #55 on: March 07, 2018, 11:08:43 PM »
Even the positive comments here only seem to enforce what I hated about this movie.

This director's arrogant pride stripped the series of everything great.  He dressed skin dancers in the names of established characters and cashed in the legacy of the franchise in order to leave his mark and prove he could make it his.

The above several arguments all point at this.

Offline Sethski

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Re: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi Discussion (Spoiler Alerts)
« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2018, 03:17:08 AM »
but instead of the shadow losing strength in the absence of the light,  Kylo kept training and got stronger in the darkside.  Snoke says: Luke had it backwards:  light always rises to meet dark. (not vice versa) SO: as Kylo trained harder and got stronger (and BECAUSE Luke had shut himself off from the force) the Force spontaneously "awoke" in a new lightside user.  This was Rey.  Rey's power in the force is directly reflective of Kylo's power in the force...   as He trains, She gets stronger. which is HOW she got so strong in the force, without trying. (what message this sends to young girls? I have no idea. the boy trains and the girl gets stronger).   Snoke says all of this with his own words.

My initial and continued impression was that Snoke is very much a 'fake Guru', that his skill is a manipulator, not a teacher, and, although we see plenty of his speaking about training and taking credit for it, the only 'training' we have any evidence for is him playing mind games with Kylo, building him up and knocking him down, and selling his (mostly innate) rise in force power - as he becomes more angry and troubled and more open to the darkside - as owed to Snoke's 'training', rather than him being a progressively more accommodating vessel for or expression of (the dark side of) the force. Like most powerful manipulators, Snoke offers snippets of credible info to set himself up as a reliable source for seemingly credible deceitful manipulations that follow.
Kylo's portrayed as powerful and having had that power for a bit, but not as someone who trains to develop this with any effort or discipline, and certainly not in the dark side. Much as I'd like to have seen a bit more training on Rey's part, too (as we did with Luke in the OT, and given that we can assume some actual training for Kylo under Luke), I didn't get the impression you describe of Rey's power rising as an effortless process of natural equilibrium from all Kylo's hard work at all.

I guess killing anyone who decides to turn to the Dark Side is the Jedi way?  Where is the nobility in that? So much for being the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy.  Luke was willing to die to save Vader despite his teachers telling him otherwise.  What could Ben have possibly done to convince Luke that he was beyond saving?

Personally, I found this was one of the really pleasing things in how Luke's arc ran. He had a moment of doubt and considered the 'wrong thing' for the 'right reasons' (in this case the 'baby Hitler' dilemma), which was fear driven, not by fear for himself, but by fear for others, which is one of the difficult questions the Jedi face through the saga (Luke in the OT, Mace deciding to kill Palpatine come immediately to mind). Kylo waking up and witnessing this tips it into spectacular disaster, because they rob any chance of turning it around, of Luke working to win Kylo back, because in this moment of doubt and then realisation, Luke's seen the right and wrong way's forward and he's closed off his chance to put it right by ruining any possibility of trust and winning back Kylo/Ben. That's what's convinced him. He's also let down the other key people in his life in the process. It's classic tragic storytelling - the hero's credentials established, the flaw and circumstance/fate combining disastrously and, sometimes, the redemption of the fallen hero and passing on wisdom to the next generation (check out a synopsis of classic tragedy Oedepus At Colonus - certainly a few parallels with Luke's arc in TLJ there). It also follows the 'return' stage of the hero's journey that Lucas was inspired by as a template in many ways pretty closely, too.

A very personal part of Luke's dilemma that follows is that he's both been instrumental in the creation of a monster and simultaneously realised that he can't and won't kill Ben/Kylo. Where would the nobility be in that indeed? But he also sees that it's mistaken to believe doing nothing is less harmful or that he can bypass this difficult, seemingly impossible decision. So he finds an answer to this and the other seemingly intractable dilemmas he's faced with. He confronts Kylo and helps his friends in the process without having to kill him; He presents himself as the legendary hero people need and remains true to himself; he upholds the spirit of the Jedi way and 'passes the torch' without falling into the dogma and contradiction that he sees in the history of the Jedi. I found TLJ uneven and not so strong at points, but, personally, I found Luke's arc really moving and satisfying. Not from seeing Luke as a 'better' (or worse) character, certainly not from a lack of relating to him from the beginning, as he was my favourite character from first seeing Star Wars aged 4. Just from having a different, intelligent, personally resonant, valid perspective that's different from yours (and certainly isn't mutually exclusive with respect for the latter or a need to assert that my appreciation of it is a 'right' perspective vs someone else's 'wrong' one for anyone but myself - just to assert and explain a little that there're good reasons why it worked for me and others).
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 09:54:08 AM by Sethski »

Offline Psab Keel

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Re: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi Discussion (Spoiler Alerts)
« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2018, 10:31:33 PM »
I respectfully disagree with you.

Luke died a coward in TLJ.  If he cared that much to try and fix his mistake he could have left that island and showed up in person even if he died trying to distract Ben.  Luke's Force projection across the galaxy causing his death is as lame an explanation as Padme dying of a broken heart in ROTS.  It's just lazy writing.

I feel like Rian Johnson tried to write Luke Skywalker as cynical because he actually wanted to write a story with Han Solo but since Han died in TFA he just tried to turn Luke into Han.  Luke was the optimist, Han was the cynic. 

I won't be buying TLJ as I have no intention of owning it or even watching it in it's entirety again.  Seeing it that one time in the theater solidified my opinion of it and even watching clips of it on YouTube only affirmed my feelings about it.  I watched them in the hopes that maybe it wasn't as bad as I recalled it on opening night but alas, aside from a really awesome fight scene with Rey, Ben and the red guards, it was a bad movie.

There really isn't a compelling way for them to wrap up the story in Episode 9.  I mean we know Rey will face off and likely kill Kylo since he is beyond saving, but what will be the emotional underpinning that will make us care about that because there is none. 

What a downer this sequel trilogy is.  Luke, Han and Leia's lives ended up so miserable and the galaxy is STILL in constant turmoil with no end in sight even after 30+ years of them fighting.  What a horrible life!  This movie was just so depressing.  At least the other films were fun and upbeat.  They projected a sense of hope.  I know that this is the second act which is usually the darkest in a story, but come on!  Luke is dead.  Han is dead.  Carrie Fisher is dead in real life.  Admiral Ackbar died off screen.  The central planet of the Republic was blown up along with 6-7 other planets.  R2-D2 is stuffed in the corner and covered in a rag with his power shut off.  Phasma is dead.  Snoke is Dead.  All that remains of the Resistance can fit into the hull of the Falcon.  Is that the best they can do with the story?  Just kill everyone off?  They might as well execute all of the Porgs one by one, tar and feather Chewbacca, dismantle C-3PO, scrap R2 for parts to build their new iphones, and resurrect Darth Vader so they can have a lightsaber battle with him and then cut his head off.






« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 10:44:37 PM by Psab Keel »

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Re: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi Discussion (Spoiler Alerts)
« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2018, 11:21:08 PM »
Luke's ending was one of the few things I found agreeable.  I also liked the "Mary Poppins" scene, but it was the perfect opportunity to have her pull off one last trick before her grand exit, especially in light of real life events.  She could have pulled that off, then saved the day with her last remaining strength, having spent herself on the miracle.

Other than that, I have a lot of the same feelings as Psab Keel.  Every time some someone tries to convince me I'm wrong they only cement it even further.  I don't hate the monsters or the porgs or the scenes mentioned above.  I hate that all of the characters were inconsistent with their established personas, and (never mind, there was a lot of other stuff, but I decided that was the most important thing).  I've said it before, That prank call routine in the beginning felt like a sick joke and I was half waiting for it to just pop up with text saying "Got ya!  sorry guys, we didn't finish the movie yet... please enjoy a full refund and complementary popcorn".  That being said, it was one of the most character faithful scenes in the movie.

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Re: Episode VIII: The Last Jedi Discussion (Spoiler Alerts)
« Reply #59 on: March 10, 2018, 10:05:49 AM »
 so far, the ST was a 'retelling of events' in the same way that JJ abrams rebooted Trek.

at the end of ROTJ, Luke is left with no jedi order to tell him how to interpret the will of the force *gasp* at the end of TLJ, Rey is left with no jedi order to tell her how to interpret the will of the force *yawn* it's the same thing.

the story of the 'force' has not progressed one iota from where it left off with Luke.. the only difference is, they shifted his role as 'Lone Jedi' onto a different character.. for the sake of it.

-=================-

here's my take on anakin's fall:

(and "Rey's Role" in the story):






people are annoyed with TPM because they say it has no protagonist, and it doesn't contribute to the 'origin of vader' so therefore it is irrelevant to the saga.
I submit that TPM tells the origin of the Rebellion and the Empire from the OT -- the rebellion came from qui-gon and the Empire came from padme -- these are the two protagonists of the first movie.

- TPM gives us 2 noble ideas from 2 likable characters: "Padme's Militarization" and "Qui-gon's Defiance". the audience agrees with both. Padme's arc tells us that "militarization" is a good thing, under certain circumstances -- she militarizes a peaceful planet against hordes of killer robots, by using the gungan's "Grande Army" to save the day (jar jar's word) she pulls an army out of her own ***; qui-gon shows us "defiance" of authority is necessary under certain circumstances -- he defies the Jedi Council when it comes to "the will of the force"* -- yoda says to obi-wan: "quigon's defiance.. need this you do not".

- AOTC (or "Attack Of The Slippery Slope") uses 2 decidedly UNsympathetic characters to push these 2 noble ideals down the Slippery Slope. the audience DISagrees with both. jar-jar is the gungan half of padme's planet, these 2 characters are inextricably linked -- jar jar takes padme's ideal one step too far when he militarizes the entire galaxy, by using the "Grande Army" of the Republic to save the day (jar jar's word) the republic pulls an army out of its own ***; dooku is qui-gon's jedi master, these 2 characters are inextricably linked -- dooku takes qui-gon's ideal one step too far when he creates a separatist movement in "defiance" of the entire galaxy now. jar jar is motivated by Fear; dooku is motivated by Anger; (both are 'darkside' influences; both characters are hated by the audience).

(yes that's right -- any personal hatred of Jar Jar you may feel, is INTENTIONAL and you are being PLAYED as GL says: "Jar Jar is the Key To Everything" -- GL needed an innocent childlike "scapegoat" character to blame for the creation of the Empire -- someone who the audience would NOT sympathize with, for his childlike innocence -- HOW do you create an "innocent childlike character" whom the audience is comfortable to HATE!? this was, indeed, the key to everything... perhaps he went a bit too far?)

- ROTS makes anakin choose: padme or qui-gon. he chooses the "padme" position but loses her BECAUSE of the slippery slope (he loses her because of FEAR) -- he burns-to-vader ON a "slippery slope" just to drive the point home visually -- this is the origin of the Empire (note: PADME thought it up -- padme created the Empire when she made the decision to Militarize Naboo against the hordes of killer robots -- Jar Jar was the ONLY one who was present in the room when she made this decision: "yousa peoples gonna die" and "wesa got a Grande Army, that's why you no like us" this is the moment where the lightbulb goes off in her head and she makes the decision to use the Grande Army of the Gungans to militarize her planet. later in AOTSS, jar jar is asked "what would Amidala do" and he KNOWS because he was THERE when the lightbulb went off in her head LOL. he does EXACTLY what she did in TPM, he makes the decision to use the Grande Army of the Republic to militarize the entire galaxy now. it was HER decision from TPM, telegraphed through jar-jar's Fear in AOTSS, which created the empire); when anakin chooses "padme" this forces all remaining jedi (aka: yoda and obi-wan) to follow "qui-gons path" of defiance now -- (but without the slippery slope of the separatist movement) -- this is the origin of the Rebellion.

^^ I submit that this is a BETTER story kernel than the OT; the PT is BETTER written than the OT, hands down. the PT only fails in its 'execution' (which results in 3 seriously BAD movies) because these origin stories fail to translate from the screen to the audience -- most people think these movies are -only- about vader.




* Qui-Gon's Arc tells us the secret of the "balance" prophecy: qui-gon explains in TPM that the role of the Jedi is to interpret the will of the force, and act it out on the macroscopic world -- from his experience we learn, a Jedi who uses the force to enact the will of the force, brings balance to the force and is rewarded with Imortality; a jedi 'order' who uses the force to enact the will of corrupt & evil politicians, brings imbalance (and is destroyed by the Chosen One). it follows, that the Jedi Order ITSELF brings imbalance to the force. because they ignore their own role in the universe -- they ignore the 'will of the force' -- and when Qui-gon called them on it, Mace&Yoda physically rolled their eyes at him.

in this scene we see: the political institution called "Jedi Order" intentionally prevents the individual Jedi Knights, from following the will of the Force... why? because the Jedi Order is tied to the Senate; because they had surrendered their moral authority to the government, 1000 generations ago. when the Republic was formed, the institution called "Jedi Order" was created to keep the "Knights" in line -- in the end, "separation of church and state" was required to bring balance to the force --- but HOW did the "union of church and state" EVER happen in the first place..? now THAT is a story worth telling....
...and it is ONLY told in the "Last Samurai" -- this was the BEST star wars movie that Lucasfilm NEVER made. LOL (it is "required watching", to give context to TPM) otherwise people get bored in the Senate Scene because they don't understand the exposition *yawn* xxx senate scene!

the Jedi Knights are based on old samurai movies, afterall. recall: in "The Last Samurai", the last remaining Samurai were given a choice: to surrender their Moral Authority** and become government lapdogs.. or face oblivion. they chose "oblivion". they REFUSED to surrender their 'moral authority' to the State. but unfortunately, when when the Saga STARTS in TPM, the Jedi have already done this -- they surrendered their Moral Authority to the state, 1000 generations ago -- at this point, it's all over but the crying. (it's like a "what if" riff on the Last Samurai -- "what if" the Samurai had joined with the government at the end of that film -- how would this destroy them, 1000 generations later?)





** Where the Force is a metaphor for God, and the ability to 'use the force' is a metaphor for god-given Freewill...
..then Star Wars is NOT about "good v evil" -- it's really about Morality (in general). ie: now that you have this thing called Freewill, then WHAT governs your actions?

SW gives us three paths (not just two): the Jedi are concerned with "the needs of the many" -- they use the force to benefit the moral majority -- they derive their moral authority from the popular vote (of corrupt politicians); the Sith are concerned with the neeeds of the Few (or the One) they only care about themselves -- they derive their moral authority from their own selfish whims. in the opera scene on ROTS, this is given as the difference between the jedi and the sith --- the very difference between "Good and Evil" -- but this is not enough to explain "morality" in general***

qui-gon illustrates the third path: follow the will of the force, the way a christian is meant to follow the will of god (for lack of a better metaphor) -- this leads to immortality. qui-gon derives his moral authority from a Higher Power (as if 'Jedism' was a "religion" *gasp*). qui-gon;'s arc reveals the secret to religious immortality in the SW universe, thus proving that HIS mantra from TPM, was indeed the "correct" path all along: a jedi who uses the force to enact the will of the force brings balance to the force. and a jedi council who uses the force to enact the will of the Senate (when the senate is ruled by a SITH LORD) brings imbalance to the force. hands down.

the "union of church and state" allowed the sith to take command of the Jedi Order -- to control both sides of the force. at some point, there was NOBODY following the will of the force anymore. both sides were "using" the force, like a piece of meat LOL -- (they were using the force AGAINST ITS WILL). so the Force responded in self defense: it spawned the chosen one to wipe out all force users who were ignoring the will of the force. this included the younglings in the temple, the political institution called "Jedi Order", and yes, the destruction of the sith in ROTJ -- anakin killed every known force user who was using the force 'against its will' -- and he destroyed the institutions which made this possible in the first place.

in the end the only one left alive is Luke, and Luke has been taught qui-gon's path -- "let go your conscious self" and "let the force guide your actions". (aka: follow the will of the force). when all jedi are free to follow the will of the force again, then this marks the return of the jedi and brings balance to the force. (when the senate is destroyed and the JEdi Order no longer exists -- aka: "Separation of church and state" -- then the individual Knights are free to follow their OWN "moral authority" again, like the Samurai of Old...

((UNFORTUNATELY : in the time between trilogies, unseen and off-screen, Luke tried to recreate the Jedi Order as the military companion to Leia's Government and the cycle repeated itself -- but that's OK because Kylo's attempt to "kill the past" was like a "Reset Button", destroying the "Jedi Order" all over again, and killing the snoke-character -- (which is really sort of redundant, since that's exactly what the first 2 trilogies did: 'killed the past', by eradicating the 1000-generations-old "jedi order", and killing the OT-snoke-character Palpatine) --> kylo has now accomplished everything the first two trilogies managed to accomplish BEFORE "TFA" got involved -- (so why did they bother with the ST at all, so far?) -- TLJ has resulted in Rey now following the force blindly, with no "institution" or "Order" to tell her what to do. she must figure it out for herself. she follows her OWN moral authority now, just as Luke was MEANT to do at the end of ROTJ, before "TFA" got involved --> ie: she is the new Luke now, picking up the torch from the exact spot in the story where Luke was standing at the end of ROTJ, where Luke was meant to 'figure it out for himself' and 'follow the will of the force' with no "institution" or "Order" to tell him what to do -- so what's the difference!? she just took over Luke's Story (rather than give her a story of her own). Luke's Role In The Universe from the end of ROTJ has been transferred directly to Rey as she becomes the "new luke" (in his own story) and Rian Johnson burns Old Luke to the Ground for the SAKE of this blatant transposition-of-characters... it's weird.. the story of The Jedi is now back to Square#1-- Rey is standing in the exact same place of the story where Luke was standing at the end of ROTJ -- ((so why did they bother with the ST? so far? it has accomplished exactly nothing. it has returned the story of the Jedi Knights to the final frame of ROTJ)) -- when the JEdi order no longer exists, and the individual Knights are free to follow their OWN moral authority again, like the Samurai of Old...))




*** consider the following scenario: it's the end of the world, the sun has gone dark in a nuclear winter, there is no food. the Government has decreed: there will be no 'hoarding' of food -- they dispatch an army of Jedi Knights to keep the peace, and ensure that NOBODY gets more than their share (the Jedi follow blindly) -- as a result, humanity runs out of food and becomes extinct. meanwhile: the Sith Lord thinks only about himself. he hoards food for himself (and his family) and as a result, Humanity is spared from extinction -- his family goes on to re-populate the planet.
--> which result is "good" and which is "evil"?

as you can see, sometimes "selfish v selfless" is NOT enough to describe the concept of good v. evil -- and WORSE: sometimes the definitions of good v. evil can CHANGE over time -- this is how the Sith were able to take command of the Jedi Order -- by exploiting the concept of 'dynamic morality' (vs the 'static morality' of actual "religion", which is literally written in stone).

example: time was, human beings on planet earth would sacrifice virgins to make the crops grow. they thought this was for the GOOD of all society. but now we know that SAME action to be EVIL. in a system of dynamic morality tied to politics, the definitions of Good and Evil will change over time, depending on the popular vote.. and it is just as easy, for it to swing the other way.. (for things once thought to be "evil", being now considered "good", by a bunch of corrupt politicians). the "union of church and state" ensured that the Jedi's very source of Morality, would ALWAYS change over time, with no moral compass to guide it -- (given that their 'source of Morality' was the Dysfunctional Galactic Senate) -- Palpatine need only take control of the senate, to take control of the Jedi Order (to control both sides of the force). this is how the Jedi Religion lost their way: by surrendering their moral authority to a system of Dynamic Morality which changes daily according to 'politics', leaving them with NO moral compass of their OWN.

 
 


^^ THIS is what Luke inherited at the end of ROTJ: he inherited his OWN moral compass -- as per qui-gon "a jedi who uses the force to enact the will of the force brings balance to the force" -- Luke inherited the ability to interpret the will of the force FOR HIMSELF, with no government-controlled "jedi order" telling him what to do.

^^(and this is what Rey inherited at the end of TLJ: she inherited Luke's Role In The Story -- LOL -- because she HAS no story of her OWN). LOL :P

they have shifted Luke's role as 'The Lone Jedi' onto a different character.. for the sake of it.   

and in doing so, they did not allow "Luke's" story to progress..  at all.     ((Luke's story ended with ROTJ)).

anything his character was meant to do afterwards..   will now be done by Rey.   ((THIS is the net effect of the ST (so far): she has been transposed on top of Luke's story, exactly where it left off at ROTJ -- the "Lone Jedi" with NO 'jedi order' to guide her actions nor tell her what to do -- the story of the 'Jedi Knights' has not progressed AT ALL from the last scene of ROTJ -- the ST has accomplished exactly nothing -- it has ONLY served to 'pass the torch' to a different character...   without advancing the story of the Jedi Knights, at all)).  :sad: 




the story of "Luke The Lone Jedi" -- (interpreting the will of the force for himself, with no "Jedi Order" to guide him) -- was put on HOLD for 30 years..   

.. while we waited around for a new politically correct "Lone Jedi" instead.  :angel:  LOL
« Last Edit: March 10, 2018, 11:22:40 AM by WEDGE ANTILLES »
"The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story.
Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned, and Luke doesn't get married..."
- George Lucas