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Author Topic: Petit Crouton vs Crystal Focus 5 Sound Font Popping  (Read 17918 times)

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Offline erv

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Re: Petit Crouton vs Crystal Focus 5 Sound Font Popping
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2011, 12:17:49 AM »
The CF 5 (as well as some older versions) has a sensitivity to the length of the sound file. If it's not an exact length it can have a slight click as it transitions to another sound (ex. poweron into hum). With some font's it's not noticeable. You'll pick up none of this with a PC. It seems to be only noticeable with poweron and hum sounds.

I think Erv has figured this out and corrected it for upcoming CF5's (not positive).
I figured out the best file length when I did Korriban, and then copied that same length for my other fonts.


File length sensitivity was a slight but of the early V4. Playback blending between power on and hum (ignition) was corrected in 5.08, and it wasn't a pop or a click but a slight pitch change (playback speed not accurate).

For the problem you're having, simply make sure you don't have any meta data stored in your WAV files. You don't hear those on a PC because the amp isn't as lound and the resolution (8 bits) turns down the clicks and higher freqs in general.
Many software store meta data in the file without notifying the user, but in most cases it can be disabled (in the saving options sometimes). The most recent version of soundforge likes to store loop points and I haven't found a way (yet) to disable this.

Offline PhoenixJedi

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Re: Petit Crouton vs Crystal Focus 5 Sound Font Popping
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2011, 12:35:11 AM »
no metadata that I can find at all. I'm gonna need to buy a CF in the next run, this way I can test.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 01:57:36 AM by PhoenixJedi »

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Offline erv

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Re: Petit Crouton vs Crystal Focus 5 Sound Font Popping
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2011, 02:33:00 AM »
please send me your font so that I can test. Email is in my profile. What software do you use to make the font / edit audio ?

Offline Shadeslinger

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Re: Petit Crouton vs Crystal Focus 5 Sound Font Popping
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2011, 04:55:59 AM »
The way I test my own fonts now for pops and such is by changing the config parameter "rand" to 1 which makes every sound play in sequence. Then I play the font through a saber one sound at a time while listening for problems and keeping track of what sound I am on. That way if I come across a problem, I know what sound to address. My solution has always been to re-mix the sound in question entirely (Ripley voice: *It's the only way to be sure* :D). Just make sure during your mixing process, whether it's using erv's mixer or otherwise, that you remember what settings you originally mixed everything at so it's all uniform when you fix problems. That's just my way of doing it and is in no way definitive. I'm sure there are other and better alternatives...see what works for you! :)

I learned a while ago that just because you hear no problems in your audio program, doesn't mean you won't hear problems during actual use.  Hope that helps a little.

Offline Juansith

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Re: Petit Crouton vs Crystal Focus 5 Sound Font Popping
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2011, 06:52:10 AM »
I hope this is a good lesson in the fact that--YES--it is indeed difficult to make a QUALITY font.

I may actually know the answer to this issue presented here... but... for maybe the first time ever (regarding font making)--I'm going to let people figure it out on their own.

It may sound weird to the "general public"... but I actually think it's better for new font makers (and old ones!) to have to find some of their own solutions--leading to them to truly APPRECIATE the work involved with these things.

This may actually be a bit because of all the "behind-the-scenes" garbage + factual inaccuracies regarding LED sabers & history that I have to put up with (that most of the public folks @ FX and most everywhere else don't KNOW about)... but in any case... yeah, it's not as easy as it looks.

Juan, since you and I have recently worked on the CJHS font... message me if you like.  In YOUR case... I want to verify if it's something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT...


Novaaaaa, how are you ;)

Most of the cases that ive had a pop is due to something related to how i cut the samples, and so, it can be solved in the timeline.
I think the only samples that have given me the problem at hand ( pops appear only when you test them on the CF5) are actually boot sounds
Like i said, if i hear a pop in a swing or a loop or a clash is mostly because of something im not doing right in the timeline.

This may sound weird, but i LOVE spending four hours trying to figure out something,as little or as insignificant as it might seem the problem,
 well, maybe not in that moment, but looking back i wouldnt trade all those hours ane hard work for anything. I dont know, but i dont think i could ever work the easy way, maybe its because in those four hours you get to find out for yourself why are the pops appearing, plus, you learn like 20 new things you didnt know about.


Font making is extremely challenging and hard if you want to achieve perfection. Well, what isnt :).

« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 06:53:55 AM by Juansith »




Offline MACE WINDU

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Re: Petit Crouton vs Crystal Focus 5 Sound Font Popping
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2011, 07:08:15 AM »
Yea, at least my wife understands that about me too.  That's why I was in here all day working on it lol.


Offline PhoenixJedi

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Re: Petit Crouton vs Crystal Focus 5 Sound Font Popping
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2011, 11:38:28 AM »
Thats the thing about these. In every one of my fonts, I managed to clear out every pop between my petit crouton, my laptop and my desktop before releasing it. The desktop is running an audigy II zs, the laptop is a crappy laptop soundboard, and the petit crouton speeks for itself. I hear absolutely no anomalies on all three of these, so its highly confusing that the CFs are having problems.

I'm the only saber smith ever mentioned in the NY Times: http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?topic=35163
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Check out my profile for my website, sound font samples and pictures of sabers i've built!
Note: All sales from me, once shipped, are final.

Offline Juansith

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Re: Petit Crouton vs Crystal Focus 5 Sound Font Popping
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2011, 12:04:39 PM »
The only thing thats happening is that CF5 has much better quality.
Like every other format or media, we need to work for the best resolution or format available, from there we just need to compress to the lower formats.
My suggestion is to always work and render for CF5 and Obsidian, then port the font to the other soundboards.

The CF5 is showing clicks because they are there, if there are no clicks whatsoever it wont show them. 97 percent of the times this is correct, the other 3 is metadata which honestly it has happened only once and they were only boot sounds.




Offline erv

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Re: Petit Crouton vs Crystal Focus 5 Sound Font Popping
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2011, 02:44:02 AM »
Thats the thing about these. In every one of my fonts, I managed to clear out every pop between my petit crouton, my laptop and my desktop before releasing it. The desktop is running an audigy II zs, the laptop is a crappy laptop soundboard, and the petit crouton speeks for itself. I hear absolutely no anomalies on all three of these, so its highly confusing that the CFs are having problems.

like I said, you can send me the font for expertise. It doesn't have to be ALL the files if you don't want to, just a few of them, at least for instance hum, power on and a bunch of swings.
I'll trouble shoot things for you and post the reason I found or what I had to do to fix it.

Metadata most of the time aren't the fact of the software editing but are embedded by the sound designer, especially when grabbed from a game.

I hear absolutely no anomalies on all three of these, so its highly confusing that the CFs are having problems.

like it's been said, CF is 16 bit audio and reveals a lot of things especially compared to the PC. Keep in mind your editing software or even player mute / ramp the beginning of audio files just in case it's too sharp or clicky, so you don't hear the problem. If the issue is about the meta data, it's another story but it's also very easy to fix.
CF & PC use the same exact code for the audio engine.

Offline MACE WINDU

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Re: Petit Crouton vs Crystal Focus 5 Sound Font Popping
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2011, 05:22:10 AM »
Hey 'Erv,

You've got mail.  I've been working with Phoenix and JuanSith yesterday and I think I have it cleaned up quite a bit.  There are still some subtle clicks I haven't found yet but I ran out of time to work on it last night.  Maybe you'll see something that's easy to fix :)

These are remixed samples from the original unmixed exported files that Phoenix provided me.  I remixed them with the tail of the hum loop trying to get the star/end points to be zero crossing with no Meta data saved.


Offline erv

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Re: Petit Crouton vs Crystal Focus 5 Sound Font Popping
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2011, 07:18:51 AM »
got mail  ;D (thanks). Nice font by the way !

like pointed out by nightstorm to phoenix (and explained for the sake of sound fonts in general)

- lack of tail : you need to keep the whole decay of the sound with which the hum will be mixed. Similar results are obtained with shortening a sound with a lot of reverb : you might think the volume is close to zero after a while, you cut it and the sound... sounds cut (instead of fade out).

- 1 blaster had a gap (silence), hence "pop" or harsh transition

- some files have saturation (clipping) but that's not pop per say and it adds up to the color (like a maul saber). Not pop per say.

- poweronf for instance is an interesting patchwork (from phoenix or the original sound was like that). There's a big burst of high freq at the very beginning, it sounds like a saturated mike. That "blast" suits well the power "on force" though. Same, not a "click" per say

- the main click, that is *everywhere* is in the hum, at the beginning. I though it was due to the CF audio engine or something but I listened carefully and the click is there in sound forge too (ie it's not looping properly). It's subtle, it's not in the waveform per say, it's in the transition.

This, of course, despite the zero crossing was made properly (good job).  I confirmed this with headphones. It's a very subtle pop that occurs when looping or at the transition between the hum and the fx sound.
(I don't have bionic ear, listen to the sound in loop, it's there, even on my vaio internal sound card)

That issue is due to the nature of the chosen sound for the hum : it varies in pitch.

Solution : build the hum loop so that the pitch comes back on its feet. It can be longer if this helps, as long as it beginning and the end match.

As for the other sounds, they have been mixed with a portion of hum which pitch doesn't match with the beginning of the hum neither, so the pop is there.

Offline PhoenixJedi

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Re: Petit Crouton vs Crystal Focus 5 Sound Font Popping
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2011, 11:16:04 AM »
The hum loop came directly from TFU2.. .Does that mean that the people who made it mixed it improperly?

I'm the only saber smith ever mentioned in the NY Times: http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?topic=35163
My Sabers: Avenger & Defender (TCSS Pair), Ravager (SF Vanquish)
Check out my profile for my website, sound font samples and pictures of sabers i've built!
Note: All sales from me, once shipped, are final.

Offline ANAKIN SKYWALKER

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Re: Petit Crouton vs Crystal Focus 5 Sound Font Popping
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2011, 11:18:38 AM »
Nevermind... decided I'll leave it to the experts.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 11:31:36 AM by Alex Gordon »


Offline MACE WINDU

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Re: Petit Crouton vs Crystal Focus 5 Sound Font Popping
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2011, 12:21:55 PM »
The hum loop came directly from TFU2.. .Does that mean that the people who made it mixed it improperly?

That very well could be the case.  I suspect it would never have been an issue for anyone until it was put on a CF5 :)  No problem though, I'm confident we'll improve on their work then to make it more suited to what we want it to do!  Thanks to Phoenix, Juansith, and 'Erv.  I'll mess with it some more tonight and see what I can do.

;)


Offline Juansith

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Re: Petit Crouton vs Crystal Focus 5 Sound Font Popping
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2011, 12:34:01 PM »
Well today ive found that clicks can be idiots.
First, i realized that by adding or removing one ms or two ms to the duration of the tail is normally the solution for the clicks.
I was working with a swing that had a click at the tail, so i was adding one ms at a time and saving and then checking it with goldwave to see if the click was gone. So i added one ms that managed to eliminate the click, so i rerendered that same swing and saved it again and, guess what, the click appeared again, nothing changed, i just re rendered. And one save has a click and the other one doesnt.





 

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