FX-Sabers.com

Toshi Station: For discussion of Non FX-Sabers approved entities => The Toshi Station => Topic started by: Sandpeople are people too on November 05, 2011, 02:38:41 PM

Title: Is this the place where we can talk about products produced by some people?
Post by: Sandpeople are people too on November 05, 2011, 02:38:41 PM
So is this the place to review products and talk about N*** C********, S**** F****, or U**** S******?

If so, cool.
Title: Re: Is this the place where we can talk about products produced by some people?
Post by: JANGO FETT on November 05, 2011, 02:44:57 PM
Information will be posted soon, and there will be guidelines for posting as well.

Please hold off posting until they are made available.
Title: Re: Is this the place where we can talk about products produced by some people?
Post by: Yoda on November 05, 2011, 02:57:08 PM
So is this the place to review products and talk about N*** C********, S**** F****, or U**** S******?

If so, cool.

Information will be posted soon, and there will be guidelines for posting as well.

Please hold off posting until they are made available.

It is a day that will be long remembered when the Bounty Hunter says, "Hold your fire, there aren't any life forms on board" :D

Title: Re: Is this the place where we can talk about products produced by some people?
Post by: Drazhar on November 05, 2011, 03:08:50 PM
So is this the place to review products and talk about N*** C********, S**** F****, or U**** S******?

If so, cool.

Information will be posted soon, and there will be guidelines for posting as well.

Please hold off posting until they are made available.

It is a day that will be long remembered when the Bounty Hunter says, "Hold your fire, there aren't any life forms on board" :D



Guess that means they really DO pay by the laser.
Title: Re: Is this the place where we can talk about products produced by some people?
Post by: The_Night on November 18, 2011, 09:00:34 PM
so... is this the place to review products by certain companies?
Title: Re: Is this the place where we can talk about products produced by some people?
Post by: Sandpeople are people too on November 18, 2011, 09:20:37 PM
Supposedly, yet the here-to-fore mentioned info on how is yet to be posted.  nearly 2 weeks ago.
Title: Re: Is this the place where we can talk about products produced by some people?
Post by: JANGO FETT on November 18, 2011, 09:27:26 PM
http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?topic=30011.msg413889#msg413889 (http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?topic=30011.msg413889#msg413889)

Current site policy.
Until this changes, this section will remain as a placeholder.
Title: Re: Is this the place where we can talk about products produced by some people?
Post by: Darth Raijlin on November 18, 2011, 09:50:15 PM
Josh,

I think some individuals might need it clarified. I for one do.  The topic states that legal matters cannot be spoken about regarding those companies, but it doesn't say any conversation involving their products is prohibited.

Could you clarify so that we may better understand the current state of the site?  There may be people who come to the forum and may not be privy to the past occurences with the companies and may sincerely be looking for info from anyone who may own an Overlord, Raven, etc.
Title: Re: Is this the place where we can talk about products produced by some people?
Post by: JANGO FETT on November 18, 2011, 10:39:23 PM
Forums being an interactive discussion/conversation, where members may post their opinion on the topic posted by the OP....well to be frank the negative ones can have legal consequences for the site and possibly the poster :-X :o

How is fair or right that only positive reviews may be posted vs. negative ones be removed? It's not.
So our current state for the site is none posted.
Title: Re: Is this the place where we can talk about products produced by some people?
Post by: Sandpeople are people too on November 19, 2011, 12:05:32 AM
So, you can review non-guild/non-mining colony builders/suppliers here (like mouser, or e-bay builders that aren't on FX as a producer or business front).

You cannot currently review folks who are currently on the "no fly list," 



Title: Re: Is this the place where we can talk about products produced by some people?
Post by: LUMINARA UNDULI on November 19, 2011, 02:59:11 PM
That would be an adequate assessment of the current situation.
Title: Re: Is this the place where we can talk about products produced by some people?
Post by: Darth Raijlin on November 19, 2011, 03:48:03 PM
Just got back from Knoxville training some Jiu-Jitsu and saw the post and the PM Josh.  Thanks man, I just wanted to understand better.

I didn't think negative review, if founded upon sound logic, could put the site in a legal quandry.

i.e. shipping issues, weak connections in wiring, etc. 

I guess I was thinking of the more concrete parts of the review and not the subjective.

Thanks man, I'll try and call you tomorrow.  Honestly very sore tonight ... LOL
Title: Re: Is this the place where we can talk about products produced by some people?
Post by: Onli-Won Kanomi on November 19, 2011, 05:36:37 PM

I didn't think negative review, if founded upon sound logic, could put the site in a legal quandry.


Anything at all posted by anyone on any subject can put any site in a legal quandry since in your legal system anyone can get a lawyer to file a lawsuit at any time for any reason or no reason at all. It may not have any merit nor any chance of winning but the simple ability to file and thus force a site owner to incur the real expense of a lawyer to defend themself can be used as a bully-tactic threat to intimidate that owner into not allowing any discussion of any subject that they have been threatened by a litigious person about. It is therefore unfortunate imo when the use of intimidating legal threats creates a 'chilling effect' on forums but we should be understanding that by the owner acceding to such bully tactics the posters on the site remain able to discuss other subjects which that bully allows, until other bullies do likewise anyway.

I'm NOT saying that is an adequate assessment of the current situation since I don't know what that is - rather just a general observation on the 'art' of intimidation from someone with a looooooonnng history being abused by many types of bully tactics of bullies of many types -sigh-.
Title: Re: Is this the place where we can talk about products produced by some people?
Post by: Darth Raijlin on November 19, 2011, 09:32:56 PM
Thank you for that ... er ... comment full of what sounded like circumlocution.  LOL ... jokingly it definitely took me around in circles and definitely read like one of my law texts.   ;)

I understand QUITE fully about the ability in the U.S. for anyone to sue for any reason.  It is quite disheartening.

I was NOT questioning Josh at any point as to why we couldn't talk about the products.  I was asking for clarification as to if certain topics were not allowed, or if ANYTHING involving those who are "persona non grata" is not allowed.

I wholely support the decisions of Mike, Sam, Andrew, Josh, LDM, and all the others that work diligently to run the board.

As far as succumbing to the "bully tactic", believe me I understand this quite clearly as well ... my wife being the owner of our martial arts school.  Talk about a business where liability is always at the forefront.  However, we don't worry everyday about hurting someone's feelings by saying something wrong.  Could I be sued ... yeah like you said.  You can get papers filed for looking at someone the wrong way.  but I don't worry about it.  If that time comes, I will very gladly walk into small claims court to represent my wife and I in a frivolous lawsuit, and if it would be a larger lawsuit, that is what a countersuit for wrongful prosecution is for to help cover your lawyer costs.  ;)

Saying product XYZ is great for blah blah blah, but has very bad blah blah blah in my opinion is much different than saying "product XYZ sucks".  honestly, i have not look into the legal ramifications, but in my mind the same correlation can be made about the Reviews one would read on Amazon.com, Best Buy, Wal Mart, or any other retailer where people give their opinions yet cannot be held liable by the retailer for said opinion. 

That is how I viewed this section.

*shrug* my honest opinion and observation.  but i fully support my former brothers and sisters of the Council.   :D
Title: Re: Is this the place where we can talk about products produced by some people?
Post by: Onli-Won Kanomi on November 19, 2011, 10:43:39 PM
I fully support the decisions of the administration and staff of this great site as well. They "will do what I [they] must" to keep the forum open and that is a good thing imo.

It is unfortunate if anything members might say in any review posted here would be deemed as representing anything more than our own opinion...imo it ought to be obvious that anything said on any online forum by its general public membership is the expression of nothing else but the posters personal opinion not necessarily representing that of the site, its administrator(s) or staff [etc etc disclaimer-ese ad nauseum]. Certainly I would not want anyone to ever think I speak for anyone but myself, nor to cause any trouble for anyone else because of any mistaken impression that I did. So if that possibility exists as a potential legal problem then the decision of the Council to restrict certain topics or from discussion here is a wise one - again, imo.

[Why do I feel like that episode of The Good Wife with the Judge who demands that the lawyers begin every sentence and end every sentence with "in my opinion" eh? LOL]
Title: Re: Is this the place where we can talk about products produced by some people?
Post by: Obi-Shane on November 19, 2011, 11:35:52 PM
So much for freedom of speech. In all honesty though, there is probably a lot more going on here then we as normal members know about. From my perspective at least, I try not to loose sight of the fact that if I had not stumbled across one of Master Yoda's creations on youtube 3 years ago, I would not be here with you fellow Star Wars lovers now, enjoying this new found hobby and re-living the enjoyment that Star Wars brought to me as a kid. So for those things, I'm very grateful.

No matter were you go though, there are always bullies, especially Cyber-bullying is quite popular. And from what I see, especially here in America, people are seemingly not taught accountability as children. They do what they want and justify it in there own minds. It's a psychological thing. I see it every day. Now that a large part of today's communication takes place online, people are even more brazen, and take things too far. "KNOWING" in their mind, they can act as they please and no one can do nothing about it. If only philosophy and ethics were mandatory courses in public school we might not have to deal with so many adult children in today's society.

         Shane
Title: Re: Is this the place where we can talk about products produced by some people?
Post by: Darth Raijlin on November 20, 2011, 11:46:21 AM
I agree Shane.  It is one reason why that is one of the characteristics taught in my martial arts classes starting from my Tiger Tots (ages 3-6) all the way up through the Adult classes.  There has been a severe lack of accountability over the past decade and a half.

I even began to see it permeate the Marine Corps when I was reactivated for the war in 2003.  It was horrid to see the way some of the young Marines fresh out of boot camp were behaving ... and that was only 2 years after I got out of the military the first time in 2001.

The "What's-in-it-for-me" generation.  Although, the more we think about it and want to blame the younger generation, how can they totally be at fault when we have the older generation as far up as Congress who are always looking to blame others for our issues.  Or sports stars or music celebrities always blaming others for their issues.

It's straying a bit off topic, but I believe is still indicative of what you, Onli, and I were saying.

It truly is a shame that a simple disclaimer of "the opinions herein are that of the purchaser and in no way reflect the opinions of FX-Sabers or its administrators."  It seemed years ago when I was first here, that's exactly what we all strove for ... or at least what I tried to push for was a no-BS account on the manufacturers.

It's why as Darth Vader (heck, even as Darth Raijlin before I wore the mantle) I tried to hold the manufacturers accountable.  I went head to head with Alex (Ultrasabers) many times, even as his initial liaison, demanding accountability from him and the company due to the poor communication.

Also why I went head to head with JSS/Equinox (no not JudgeSaberSmith) with his bad business deals ... especially hard against him because of him being a Marine at that time on active duty.  I went so far as to personally contact him back then and tell him I would be forwarding all the information to his commanding officer if he didn't do his best to rectify the issue.  That apparenly worked because his responding scared-to-death email was enough to put into action him getting people their sabers.

Bottom line, back then I didn't care about "personal problems" in peoples' lives if they were passing them off as sabersmiths and taking orders.  I didn't care if Alex was consistently busy and Todd was dropping the ball.  I was always on the hook or in email telling them they needed to coordinate their communication better, because back then I saw THAT as the weak link in their business model.  Alex seemed to begin some internal changes in the communication and I think after a slow evolution, that got better.

I didn't care if JSS/Equinox (Jeff if I remember correctly, it's been so long ago) had his junky wife up and leave him and he was put in a bad position between his personal life, the Marine Corps, and the sabers.  At that time, he took peoples' money and owed them professional service.

Its why everytime I enter our martial arts studio, anything from my personal life is left at the door and I conduct myself in the highest professional matter, whether it be teaching American Kenpo, Gracie Jiu Jitsu, or whatever.  Sometimes I think the manufacturers want to play both sides of the coin ...

Oh, this is a hobby.  But no, I'm a sabersmith and selling my services.  In my mind, you cannot separate the two.  If you are in the business of taking money for orders from people, by proxy you become a professional and it is no longer a hobby.  In my mind, if a smith wishes to remain a "hobbyist", you create your works on your own time frame and when they are done, sell them via the site here, ebay, etc.  But if you are taking money for a product that is not already created in hand, in my opinion you are no longer a "hobbyist".

My point was back years ago, when we didn't have the wonderful active mods we have now, I wanted to create a non-partisan place where people could go to read reviews on the products.  One reason why I encouraged the creation to Mike of the Sabersmith's Gallery to display their works.

Ironically and sadly, I miss having the mantle of Darth Vader every day.  Granted I was, um ... heavy handed at times ... LOL ... but that was what Mike liked having ... a pit bull where he could yank the leesh when needed.  ROFL ...   It was wonderful to be a part of a great group of people in the Council, and I would have loved to get to know more of them closer before I stepped down because some of them had just stepped into their roles.   The major reason why I stepped down was the issues involving the smith that has caused all the recent issues.  I foresaw MANY problems that would occur in the future with the lack of checks-and-balances.  The inability for members of the forum to give honestly earned negative feedback toward that smith .... those threads beginning to be deleted, not even moved to the Sarlacc Pit.  I protested HIGHLY about the conflcit of interest between a Vendor with such a volatile feedback becoming an Administrator here.   I remember the conversation with Mike like yesterday, where I was so opposed to it that I had to step down and not support it.  LOL ... many of the mods can tell you they probably got tired of hearing the terms "back alley crack deal" ...  LOL ....

Sadly, things unfolded in the long-term just like I foresaw.  FORTUNATELY, the Council is full of great people who are here for the greater good of the community and are quick to respond to the needs of the community.  I for one believe that overall, the site functions so much more effectively overall now with the active mods we have. compared to years ago when it was only like, oh ... five of us at most that were active.  LOL ...

Hopefully in the end, the site can get back to the way it was ... a place where anyone knew they could come to get an honest review of anything fx-lightsaber related ... whether it be Hasbro, GUILD Member, Ultra, Hyperdyne, Advanced Light Weaponry, etc.   I know that was one of the major things I found great when I joined in 2006 ... always checking people's opinions here before purchasing products!

Thanks again to our Moderators.  A job much needed and severely under appreciated.  People who are not thanked enough when things are going great .... and take unending complaints when things are not!

Title: Re: Is this the place where we can talk about products produced by some people?
Post by: nartules on November 20, 2011, 12:27:43 PM
I blame MMO's...no really I do.

In person people act a certain way, and that was the only thing you used to be remembered for. How you acted in person.

Now though telecommunications and other forms of interaction have given people a vieled shadow they could act differently in.  So that they found it easy to conceal, or blame others for their actions.  Now you do not have to lie to someones face, just post a false statement online.  Who will know the difference?

But then you start doing it more often and it becomes a habit.  The generation behind me where social media exploded, seems to have gotten so used to being two faced, that they no longer feel they should accept blame for their mistakes or take ownership of their decisions.  They seem to believe that others should shoulder the burden that their errors make.

What they need to know, or learn at some point, that it is okay to make small mistakes.  

EDIT: My wife scolded me, doesn't like it when I write personal stuff on da internetz  :P