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FX-Sabers Discussion - Including a Gallery of custom sabers. => Saber Modifications & Customs => Topic started by: Aluke123 on January 08, 2008, 09:56:45 PM

Title: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Aluke123 on January 08, 2008, 09:56:45 PM
First off, the tools.

Required: A thread tap (and the drill bit that comes with one). These come in many different thread pitches. Ultra uses 8-32 threading for his blade retention screws. If you strip out that screw, go to 10-32 thread pitch.

This is a picture of a tap and the drill bit it uses.



Some kind of power drill. A drill press is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED, because with hand drill, you risk the bit wandering.

Optional, but HIGHLY recommended: Tap handle. The tap handle holds the tap, like the chuck on a drill holds the bit. The handle allows you to keep the tap at 90 degrees, and gives you plenty of torque. You can tap without the handle, by using pliers to hold the tap. This isn't recommended though, and come on, the handle is all of 6 bucks. DO NOT USE A DRILL PRESS FOR THE TAPPING. YOU WILL DESTROY YOUR TAP.



The Idiot Proof Steps To Tapping

1) Secure the drill bit that comes into your drill. A drill press is HIGHLY recommended.

2) Secure the work piece. A drill press vice is HIGHLY recommended.

3) Drill the hole. Make sure you drill at the peak of the hilt's curve, otherwise, you will have a crooked hole.


4) Clean out the hole, make sure that no metal scraps are still in the hole.
5) Attach the tap to tap handle. DO NOT USE DRILL PRESS INSTEAD OF A TAP HANDLE. YOU WILL DESTROY YOUR TAP AND HOLE.
6) Begin tapping the hole. You want to turn the tap handle 1/4 to 1/2 a rotation, and then back it out to remove material. Using lubrication during this step is highly recommended. DO NOT just tap the entire hole without backing out the tap. You run the risk of breaking that tap, and even if you don't, you will have a very poorly threaded hole.

7) Run the tap through the hole one last time, just to make sure it is threaded well. Clean out any metal shavings still in the hole. A can of compressed air works well here.

8 ) Thread your screw into the hole. Make sure you have the same thread pitch screw as hole. Otherwise, it won't work.
9) Enjoy your beautifully threaded hole  :)

Here is a good drill bit-tap reference chart.

8-32 is M4x0.7.
6-32 is M3.5 x .06.
10-32 (I'm assuming that's "UNF") is M5 x .08.
4-40 is M3 x .05.

Here's a complete chart. (http://"http://www.precisionscrewandbolt.com/metric.htm")

Another formula is: to find the right size drill bit for the tap subtract the thread pitch from the screw size. Example: M5 screw with a .7 thread pitch would require a 4.3 drill bit.


Anyone who has suggestions (or things I forgot), post em up, and I will add them to the original post.
Anyone who has questions, post them, and we will try and help you out.
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Luke S. on January 08, 2008, 09:59:53 PM
Nicely done Aluke.  I think DT is working on a padawan training center and this should be added to it.

I have stickied it until we get a group tutorial.
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Aluke123 on January 08, 2008, 10:00:54 PM
Thanks TK for the sticky. Now we just hope and pray that people read it  ;D
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Luke S. on January 08, 2008, 10:05:36 PM
I hear ya.  You can lead a horse to water.........

I only have one thought and that is the drill press mention.  At first glance I thought someone may try to use the tap in a drill press.  An inexperienced person would be clueless there.  And anyone with a drill press should know better but if someone were to have access to one ther might be some confusion.  Other than that is looks great.  I just explained this about an hour ago to a new member.
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Aluke123 on January 08, 2008, 10:08:38 PM
Okies, the drill press idea is added. I would of never thought of that one  :P
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Luke S. on January 08, 2008, 10:10:10 PM
Looks good.  I think it is pretty well idiot proofed.  Now we wait for an idiot. lol  ;D
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: lowandheavy on January 09, 2008, 03:15:53 AM
Thanks this was pretty informative Aluke, I will more than likely be tapping my blade holder this week and this was the best time for this! Thanks!
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Seth Ski-Woo on January 10, 2008, 06:33:23 AM
Great job Aluke, your time put into doing this is really helpful and appreciated.  ;)

I've noticed with tap sets that there are sometimes three types of taps, like a tapered (starting?) one and a couple of others.

Are these relevant to sabers or are they maybe for deeper holes for other stuff or something?
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Luke S. on January 10, 2008, 06:43:44 AM
Aluke I added a sizing chart for reference.  This should help as well.
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Atomic on February 18, 2008, 09:11:46 AM
Something I did that helped me, was practicing.

First I started on a scrap piece of PVC tube. It's softer and much easier to work with, but it got me into how things should feel. I've also found that on metal without a drill press, that it's very easy for the bit to wander, even if I used a punch (or nail) to make a starter area. I used a smaller bit and drilled a much smaller hole, and used that for my guide for my drill size that I would later tap.

It can't be said enough, slow and steady wins the race here.
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Sidneyious on February 18, 2008, 10:23:26 AM
The only time I ever had a bit walk on me was cause there wasent a center punch mark.

Even a nail will work as a center punch.
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Aluke123 on February 18, 2008, 10:47:49 AM
I haven't ever used a center punch. What I do is take the smallest drill bit I have (forget size offhand), and drill a tiny pilot hole. I've never had a bit wander from that.
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Sidneyious on February 18, 2008, 10:50:19 AM
Yeah but the center punch  keeps even the smallest of bits from walking
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Aluke123 on February 18, 2008, 10:55:37 AM
Here is a trick to eliminate walking with tiny bendable bits.

Slide the bit into the chuck* until only about 1/2" is showing. If you have more than that, the bit can walk.

*The part on a drill that holds the drill bit
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Matt Thorn on March 03, 2008, 06:10:42 PM
Hi. Matt Thorn here, trying out for the role of "the better idiot." I've bought my Ultrasabers Darth Maul DIY kit, and am looking at with trepidation, palms sweating. I don't have a drill press. (I wouldn't use it enough to justify the cost, and don't have room for it in my little Japanese apartment.) But all the advice on how to drill a straight, clean hole without one will, I'm sure, come in handy. (Knock on wood.) My problem is that I live in Japan, and wouldn't even know what this kind of tap would be called in Japanese. (Even in English, the word has a multitude of meanings, though obviously a hardware store attendant would understand "I'm looking for a tap for threading a hole.") I'll do what I can about the language problem (just printing out the above photo would no doubt help), but I want to confirm the size. I'm not 100% certain I understand the chart, so I'd like to confirm. Since it's an Ultrsaber kit (which says I need an 8/32 tap), I'm assuming this is what I want:

8-32 29  M5 x 0.8 4.20

Now, it's hard to tell from the chart precisely what stands for what, so bear with the better idiot here, please. "8-32" is the size of the tap. "29" is the size of the bit in inches. Right so far? Now here's the crucial part. Is "M5 x 0.8" the size of the tap in metric? Does the "M" just mean "Metric"? Is "4.20" the size of the drill bit? If so, does it literally mean "4.2 millimeters"? I looked in the local home improvement center (much, much smaller than a Home Depot) and couldn't find anything that resembled a tap for threading, so I think I'm going to have to go to a serious hardware store, and I have some place in mind (though it's a 30 minute bike ride from home). I'm pretty sure I can find everything I need at that hardware store, but I want to make sure I'm asking the right questions. Obviously, I'll take the screw with me, and maybe the hilt of the saber, to make sure they understand what I'm trying to do.

Now I've just got to find out how to say these things in Japanese. (I've been speaking the language for 20 years, but this is the first time I've ever had to use such terms.  ;D)
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Aluke123 on March 03, 2008, 06:17:10 PM
Quote
I'm not 100% certain I understand the chart, so I'd like to confirm. Since it's an Ultrsaber kit (which says I need an 8/32 tap), I'm assuming this is what I want:

8-32 29  M5 x 0.8 4.20

Yup.

8-32 is the count of threads per inch. As far as the bit goes, I don't know what the 29 stands for. Can't help with your last question either. Hopefully Don or Tyranus will chime in  :)
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Matt Thorn on March 03, 2008, 10:20:06 PM
Thanks, Aluke123. I managed to do the whole conversion--except fixing the blade to the hilt--with no problems, in about two hours. Lots of firsts for me: first time soldering, first time using a rotary tool (I think), and first time using a glue gun. I've used a drill plenty of times, but that's precisely why I want to be extremely careful with the drilling and threading: I know how easy it is for the drill to wander. I'll wait till I get an answer about the metric tap before I do anything more. In the meantime, I'll go out and buy some fresh batteries.  :)
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Matt Thorn on March 03, 2008, 11:35:26 PM
Oh, wait. I think I've found what I'm looking for.
M5 is the name of this standard size tap, 0.8 is the "pitch" (whatever that means), and 4.2 mm is the size of the hole you need to drill before using the tap, right? BTW, in Japanese a tap is called a "tap" (pronounced "tappu"). Go figure. To be precise, it's called a "meneji kiri tappu" ("female-screw cutting tap"). Does this look right?
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Matt Thorn on March 04, 2008, 01:27:58 AM
Hm? Wait a second. The Ultrasaber DIY instructions explicitly say I should drill a 1/8" hole, which is closer to 3.2 mm. I wonder where the extra millimeter went? Oh, well. I suppose it's best to err on the small side here. I'll try drilling a 3.2 mm hole and threading it with an M5 tap.
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Matt Thorn on March 04, 2008, 03:30:28 AM
I just went to the home improvement shop and found the taps. It's a good thing they were out of single M5 taps (they had only 3-tap sets in stock), because I would have bought it without thinking only to discover it was the wrong size. I stared at the taps for about 20 minutes, and damned if the M5 didn't look too large. I forgot to take the screw to the store with me, but I was almost positive it wasn't that big. So I went over to the screw section and found the same kind of screws. The M4 looked like the right size. I decided I'd better double check, so I came home empty-handed. Googling "tap drill thread metric equivalents M4 M5", I found a PDF file titled "Guide for Specification of Imperial Bolts, Threads and Hole Fits in Advanced LIGO Parts" (http://www.ligo.caltech.edu/docs/T/T030118-01.pdf). I don't know what Advanced LIGO Parts are, but I downloaded it and found that, sure enough, it contained an imperial/metric equivalent chart. And, as I suspected, the metric equivalent for an 8-32 is apparently M4, not M5. As a lowly newbie who never even used a glue gun before today, I hate to point this out, but it seems the chart Aluke123 included in his (incredibly helpful and informative) post is off by one unit.  :-[ Googling again, I see that Aluke123's chart is identical to the one at http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/tapdrill.htm, and you would think the Engineer's Handbook would be definitive, but I'll be damned if the screw that came with my DIY kit is an M5. And the instructions explicitly say to use a 1/8" drill bit, and that equals 3.175 mm, not 4.2 mm.  ??? In any event, since I now know my local shop sells the same kind of screw, even if the tap I buy doesn't match the screw that came with the kit, I can buy one that does. I'll let you know how it turns out.
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Seth Ski-Woo on March 04, 2008, 04:48:07 PM
Hi Matt - If you go M4 tap and 3.3mm bit you can always get hold of an M4 set screw easily enough if it's not a perfect fit with the one you have. Sounds like it should be ok, though.

I think in that chart (http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/tapdrill.htm (http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/tapdrill.htm)) that it shows what imperial tap corresponds to what imperial drill bit and what metric tap and drill bit correspond, but it's not actually a conversion chart; i.e. the metric stuff directly across from the imperial stuff isn't necessarily the equivalent/corresponding size, it's just easy to interpret it that way at a glance.

Re: concern about the drill wandering, I'd suggest wrapping a couple of layers of masking tape around the hilt where you're drilling the set screw hole, and possibly drilling a small pilot hole first. Also to make sure the hilt is held firmly (but with wood or rubber rather than directly with a metal clamp to avoid dints and scratches) so you can get a stable stance and good grip with both hands on the drill.

There's probably better ways of doing those bits, but those things have worked for me, so I thought I'd share them in case they're helpful  ;) Good luck getting it done, don't rush and I'm sure you'll do a fine job!
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: QUI-GON JINN on March 04, 2008, 05:14:56 PM
The number 29 in the 8-32 tap size refers to the drill bit size for the proper hole for the threads.  It's very close to 1/8" but is the more precise size,  which makes sure the depth of the threads is correct.  A 1/8" bit will have shallower threads after you tap it.
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Matt Thorn on March 05, 2008, 05:49:38 PM
Hi Matt - If you go M4 tap and 3.3mm bit you can always get hold of an M4 set screw easily enough if it's not a perfect fit with the one you have. Sounds like it should be ok, though.

That's what I was thinking.

I think in that chart (http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/tapdrill.htm (http://www.engineershandbook.com/Tables/tapdrill.htm)) that it shows what imperial tap corresponds to what imperial drill bit and what metric tap and drill bit correspond, but it's not actually a conversion chart; i.e. the metric stuff directly across from the imperial stuff isn't necessarily the equivalent/corresponding size, it's just easy to interpret it that way at a glance.

A-ha. Now it makes sense. Thanks.

Re: concern about the drill wandering, I'd suggest wrapping a couple of layers of masking tape around the hilt where you're drilling the set screw hole, and possibly drilling a small pilot hole first. Also to make sure the hilt is held firmly (but with wood or rubber rather than directly with a metal clamp to avoid dints and scratches) so you can get a stable stance and good grip with both hands on the drill.

There's probably better ways of doing those bits, but those things have worked for me, so I thought I'd share them in case they're helpful  ;) Good luck getting it done, don't rush and I'm sure you'll do a fine job!

Wow. Great advice. I would never have thought of using masking tape. Thanks a lot. I'll see if I can find a small (and cheap) vise, and if I do I'll be sure to use rubber to prevent scratches, as you suggest.

Jay-gon Jinn, thanks for the note about size!
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Katarn on March 06, 2008, 06:28:02 AM
Matt! where in japan are you?!
i am on the navy base in yokosuka (kanagawa).

i'm going through the same ordeal right now with my MHS saber. i have ordered an 8-32 thumbscrew and button head allen screw. i forgot to think how i was going to tap some threads in that size, being in japan!  :-[

now being on a navy base, i do have access to some american tools from the stores on base. however i keep forgetting to see if the have a tap set. i doubt it. anything besides hammers and nails is a bit out of thier league.  ::) (although i did buy a drill here and i have seen dremel kits...)

so i will check if they have the tap kits soon, and if they do, would you like me to grab one for you as well? or do you feel comfortable doing what you've been talking about? if so, let me know how it works out and i might make a trip to Homes myself!

well, ganbatte!
matta, ne!

Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Matt Thorn on March 06, 2008, 07:18:41 AM
Matt! where in japan are you?!
i am on the navy base in yokosuka (kanagawa).

Hi, Katarn. You asked me that before and I forgot to answer. Sorry. I'm in Kyoto.

i'm going through the same ordeal right now with my MHS saber. i have ordered an 8-32 thumbscrew and button head allen screw. i forgot to think how i was going to tap some threads in that size, being in japan!  :-[

now being on a navy base, i do have access to some american tools from the stores on base. however i keep forgetting to see if the have a tap set. i doubt it. anything besides hammers and nails is a bit out of thier league.  ::) (although i did buy a drill here and i have seen dremel kits...)

so i will check if they have the tap kits soon, and if they do, would you like me to grab one for you as well? or do you feel comfortable doing what you've been talking about? if so, let me know how it works out and i might make a trip to Homes myself!

Thanks for the offer, but I'm pretty confident the M4 tap and a 3.3 mm drill bit will do the trick. And if they don't, I'll just get an M4 screw to use instead of the 8-32 that came with the kit. I've been too busy with real work to get around to buying the stuff and trying it. I'll probably do it this weekend. The home improvement center in my neighborhood is called "Kounan". I think the closest one to you is the one in Kamakura. But Googling around I see there are at least two home improvement centers in Yokosuka: DAIK and AV. I can send you Google Maps links to them if you like.

well, ganbatte!
matta, ne!

Ganbarimasu! Katarn-san mo ne!
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Seth Ski-Woo on March 06, 2008, 01:44:11 PM
Sounds like you're sorted out ok - good luck and let us know how it goes!  ;)
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Katarn on March 07, 2008, 06:35:44 AM
hey matt.
yeah i was in kyoto for my anniversary last november. got lost at the giant train station / mall.  :-[

thanks for googling those places for me. i actually go to AVE and HOMES quiet often. they are both about 5 minutes from base.
i've seen thread taps at both places, but wasnt sure what size to get.
let me know if those work!
thanks!

Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Matt Thorn on March 08, 2008, 08:23:09 PM
Well, I drilled and threaded using an M4 tap, and rather than trying to use the 8-32 screw that came with the Ultrasaber DIY kit, I just bought a similar M4 screw. I don't know if I messed up somewhere, but the blade is a bit wobbly when screwed in. I'm sure part of the reason is that the Ultrasaber blade does not fit as snugly in its holder as the original blade fit in its holder. It doesn't seem to make any difference when I'm swinging the blade around, but I wonder if the chances of the blade being damaged in dueling are increased by the wobbling, which obviously increases stress on the threaded hole in the blade. Is this normal, or did I (pardon the pun) screw up somewhere?
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Seth Ski-Woo on March 08, 2008, 08:37:04 PM
When I've put in a set screw myself, I've just drilled and tapped the hole through the hilt/blade-holder, rather than throught the blade as well, so that it presses and holds the (undrilled/tapped) blade in place.

You may find it works better if you unscrew the set screw from the blade and twist the blade round a bit, then tighten it up again so it's just holding it in place by pressing on it rather than actually going into the blade.
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: jpbeck on March 08, 2008, 08:42:30 PM
He's right-- your not supposed to drill and tap the blade. I use M4's in my sabers and they are all very stable, and very tight.
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Matt Thorn on March 08, 2008, 08:48:44 PM
When I've put in a set screw myself, I've just drilled and tapped the hole through the hilt/blade-holder, rather than throught the blade as well, so that it presses and holds the (undrilled/tapped) blade in place.

You may find it works better if you unscrew the set screw from the blade and twist the blade round a bit, then tighten it up again so it's just holding it in place by pressing on it rather than actually going into the blade.

A-ha... Hadn't thought of that. I seem to remember the instructions saying to drill through the blade as well, but I suppose I'm mistaken. I just tried it, and sure enough, the wobbling is gone, and it seems like a strong enough hold to stand up to moderate dueling. Thanks, Sethski and jpbeck.
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: Aluke123 on February 07, 2009, 11:39:40 AM
I added pictures to the tutorial  ;)
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: DarkJediWannabe on September 03, 2009, 03:41:24 AM
When I've put in a set screw myself, I've just drilled and tapped the hole through the hilt/blade-holder, rather than throught the blade as well, so that it presses and holds the (undrilled/tapped) blade in place.

You may find it works better if you unscrew the set screw from the blade and twist the blade round a bit, then tighten it up again so it's just holding it in place by pressing on it rather than actually going into the blade.

A-ha... Hadn't thought of that. I seem to remember the instructions saying to drill through the blade as well, but I suppose I'm mistaken. I just tried it, and sure enough, the wobbling is gone, and it seems like a strong enough hold to stand up to moderate dueling. Thanks, Sethski and jpbeck.

Matt, I did a Maul upgrade myself and I was a little paranoid about how the single screw would hold the blade firmly enough for duelling. So I put in two set screws. I aligned them with the covertec clip on the back but one on either side in the dark areas just under the emitter. Works perfectly.

Just an idea. :P
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: JediJudoChop on October 25, 2009, 01:06:20 AM
Here is a trick to eliminate walking with tiny bendable bits.

Slide the bit into the chuck* until only about 1/2" is showing. If you have more than that, the bit can walk.

*The part on a drill that holds the drill bit

Now that is a tip that can be used in a lot of places even outside of Saber Smithing.

^ 2 thumbs up ^   ;D

People break those little suckers constantly.
Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: TroyO on January 09, 2011, 10:12:02 PM
I actually use the drill press all the time to tap holes.... just not under power. One of the big keys to tapping correctly is to make sure you are tapping it "straight" in to the hole drilled.

What better way than to just leave it in place and chuck up the tap and turn the chuck by hand? Since everything is still set up you know the quill travel is still exactly in line with the hole.

Although that does require that the part be well clamped when drilling so it doesn't move around during/sfter the drilling and chucking up the tap. (Which is the right way to do it anyway... althoughI have done my share of just throw it on there and hold it drilling too,)

It's a tip that has served me well.. picked it up on a machining forum.
It might be overcomplicating things for a newbie guide though.


Title: Re: The Basics Of Thread Tapping
Post by: EL1 on November 30, 2018, 08:18:28 PM
Stumbled on this forum thread and found it useful as I'm new to metal machining altogether. Threading has been hit or miss with my past projects.

Thanks!