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The S.A.B.E.R. GUILD: Saber Manufacturers => Vader's Vault => Topic started by: STARKILLER on August 03, 2013, 10:24:33 AM

Title: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: STARKILLER on August 03, 2013, 10:24:33 AM
We're on vacation, so I'm trying real hard to not get on the forums so I can enjoy the time off with my family. However, something was brought to our attention by a few friends that really irked me. It seems some people at another forum took it upon themselves to take apart one of our Havocs and make several assumptions, pontificate on some really bad information and generally slander our product and compare us to another company I will not mention. Since that forum deliberately keeps out several reputable smiths so they can continue to spread bad info, I have to post this here and dirty this forum in an effort to correct the problem.

First, I don't remember  in the last 5 years where I've ever NOT helped a customer out with one of our products if they actually came to us to give us an opportunity to do so. Since these are all handmade products, we can acknowledge that nothing is ever perfect and there will be times where things happen. However, to slander a company in public and disguise it as an 'upgrade' thread, after you didn't give them an opportunity to fix something shows petty and ulterior motives. Let's get to the "issues" that were discussed.

The heatsink:

It's no secret that for the last few years....well....since the beginning really, we've used a copper pipe cap for an optics module in our entry level sabers. We admit, it's not the most glamorous looking solution, and we've changed a few things about it after getting customer feedback and our own testing. However, it WORKS. It is a VIABLE heatsink as it is made from COPPER and does a fine job of transferring heat to the hilt which is the only job a heatsink has to accomplish. To compare what we use to a chrome plated zinc alloy nut with no heat transfer ability shows great ignorance. The copper cap has more than adequate mass and conductivity to pull heat away from the LED and get it to open air to dissipate. We have a design that is 'machined' to fit, and it is quite a bit more expensive to get mass produced but when we find the right cost balance we'll make it happen. This however, is mainly aesthetic and not necessarily for any kind of functional improvement.  For reference, in thermal conductivity, copper trumps aluminum by a long shot and aluminum only has 60% of the thermal conductivity of copper. So to replace the existing copper heatsink with an aluminum one was really just for aesthetics and offers no improvement in heat transfer and to postulate it as anything else is plain stupid.  In fact it creates a reduction in thermal conductivity so is an inferior solution for functionality.

The ...ah....'color' of the heatshrink. You don't like yellow....um....ok.

On certain colors, we don't resist the main LED. Yep, you caught us. We had the Shard made to operate on a single 3.7v cell so we wouldn't have to worry about resisting main LEDs except in the cases of reds/ambers. You see, current draw is a CONSEQUENCE, and when the vf of the LED is close the source voltage of the battery, it only draws what current it needs, therefore, no resistor is needed. Occasionally, and VERY occasionally a Tri-Rebel will draw more than the 2A that the onboard transistor will allow. In this case, the genius that is Erv' put in a digital control so you can limit the LED. It is the onboard "Drive" parameter. does it work for huge voltage drops like with a red? Nope. This is why we use an external resistor on the red LEDs.

Splitting Wires: Any sabersmith worth his solder, learns early on about wiring economy in order to avoid the spaghetti messes seen on poorly wired sabers. When wiring compact sabers, It is often necessary to split, or share wires with common polarity in order to reduce the overall number of wires in the hilt. This does not negatively affect the saber in any way. We also use a very expensive, high quality wire. It is thin, yes, but is rated REALLY well and it's equal cannot be found here domestically so it is imported. If you choose to use a separate lead for everything in order to not confuse yourself, this is fine, but don't use it as a talking point to try and slam another company.

Bringing up our older 'prototype' stunts to compare them to our work today is pretty silly. Our older stunts were sold as "prototypes" as we worked through what materials and techniques we were going to use. Our older AAA spring pack worked for a time, and after feed back that showed the spring pack interfered with the Pololu's ability to function properly as impacts would often cause the Pololu to reset in our stunts. This is why we now use the single 18650 solution in a nice and tight holder for both stunts and sound versions. If there is a problem with a saber shutting down on impact now, it is most likely due to another issue, like a bad battery PCB, or a loose SD card. But since no one came to us with any questions or issues, I guess we'll never know. Also, to criticize someone's work for not functioning after it has changed hands 2, 3+ times is petty.

I've always felt that we go over and above for our customers and the community in general. We often go over and above even our stated warranty, so if someone who obtained one of our sabers encountered a problem, we would have loved to have been given the opportunity to demonstrate our willingness to accommodate them. Normally, I wouldn't even respond to something so petty while on vacation, but when a post was done not in the effort to educate or to even show off a redux of someones work, but rather as an attempt to slander our reputation and business, it required my attention. So if anyone has any questions as to why we do things on any of our sabers, please feel free to ask. Also, if any customers have feedback on something, we're always willing to listen and if it makes sense, change things based on it. That's what REAL sabersmiths do. It's unfortunate that the offending post was made, and I guess it achieved it's purpose of being hurtful. I just felt the need to come in and correct the misinformation that is spread as it is the habit of a certain group to speak loudly and as often as possible to make people believe something is true, even if it's utter fabrication.



Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: LUKE SKYWALKER on August 03, 2013, 11:04:16 AM
I have to agree 100% what you said Alan!!! Speaking about the Havoc, I've never used a "low cost stunt" lightsaber made with such detail and quality inside and outside!
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Professor Huyang on August 03, 2013, 11:19:17 AM
I'm sorry this pulled you from vaca Alan. I really hate this kind of thing. It reminds me of the old saying "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

Or as Jay-gon would put it, "Quit yer bitchin and build your sabers."

I don't really think anyone here has any doubts as to the quality of your product, or your customer service. I hope this isn't a sign of things to come between these two forums, because there is a lot of talent on both boards.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: DarkJediKnight on August 03, 2013, 11:25:43 AM
Your work is top notch Starkiller. I would definitely not let this ruin your day. Ignorant people always have ignorant things coming out of their mouths. Your best reaction is to ignore them because they want the attention. People here know the REAL quality and will always recognize you and many others for it. Have a great weekend and remember...........they are just ignorant!  ;D
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Fat Ewok on August 03, 2013, 11:46:49 AM
I'm pretty sure I remembered you guys helping me out when my Havoc speaker blew and the SD card corrupted on my first day. I was, for one, actually very impressed that you guys were able to quickly rectify the situation without lancing a hole in my wallet despite the fact that it may have been me being clumsy with the item.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: sithslayer1 on August 03, 2013, 11:54:36 AM
Greatness courts jealousy. VV is one of the FINEST sabersmith companies in the entire hobby, Period, Bar NONE!  Also very nice, cool people to boot! Sorry this garbage pulled you away from your vacation,  Alan!
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Darth Smorgis on August 03, 2013, 12:02:06 PM
Wow.  I had not heard or read any of this information posted about you product.  It is unfortunate.
I won't even ask where this information was posted ::)

I actually just sent you guys a PM a few days ago about an led I pulled from one of your proto/stunt sabers quite a while ago.  I was just going to use it in another stunt saber that I was putting together and was not trying to pry information about your product or its quality, nor did know any of this discussion was going on.  Hope I did not raise a flag when you got the message.  The information was solely or my own use.

I have loved every one of my Vaders Vault sabers.  From Stunts, to Entry level sabers with sound, all the way to your high end sabers.  I regret having to sell my C.S. Fury's but hope to replace them some day soon.  Your reputation speaks for itself guys, so don't let this ruin your family trip.  Now log off and enjoy some quality time together.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Darksaber 3 on August 03, 2013, 12:44:35 PM
This is unfortunate. I have owned a stunt from one of these other companies, and literally within a couple days of its short warrentee ending, the LED blew because it wasnt properly resisted, and because it was mounted with hot glue on a zinc nut.

After that incident, I recently got one of your Havoc stunts, and let me say, it is one of the finest stunts I have ever used. The chassis system you implemented with the 18650 is as good as it gets. As for the copper tube caps, those are excellent heat sinks and anyone with a basic engineering/scientific knowledge would know this.

There really isn't anything of this quality in the sub $200 price range, except perhaps the Generals Malakytes.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Corran Horn on August 03, 2013, 12:51:51 PM
Since that forum deliberately keeps out several reputable smiths so they can continue to spread bad info, I have to post this here and dirty this forum in an effort to correct the problem.

The forum in question has an open registration policy.  It has not ever banned a member, denied a member from registering, or stopped anyone from defending themselves or their work.

You should come by some time, you might actually like it there.

I know some of your friends have.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: LUMINARA UNDULI on August 03, 2013, 01:32:44 PM
All I can say is I was told by more than one Admin that I was not welcome at that other forum.  What is claimed and what actually happens in practice are two different things ;).

Another post was made over there insinuating that FX-SABERs deletes valid feedback and doesn't allow any criticism.  That could not be further from the truth.  There are several of us on the Council that have championed freedom of speech for years.  Several years ago we did have one rogue MOD who was doing some things against the will of the rest of the Council and the site's owner, that MOD is no longer here for those reasons.  In addition, the person who was IP banned was done so for valid reasons.  Rarely in the history of FX-SABERs has anyone ever been IP banned.

The original post was not specifically about that other forum, or one forum vs. another.  It was regarding a post made by a member and some subsequent posts on the subject.  The post was mean-spirited, hurtful, and slanderous.  Regarding that forum itself, there is room in the world for many forums and there should be absolutely no reason why all forums cannot peaceably co-exist.  What would go a long way in making that happen would be if a certain small number of folks would stop trying to attack VV, FX-Sabers, Plecter Labs, etc.  We should all be supporting one another, rather than trying to tear each other down.

With the Havocs and Furies our goal was to bring an affordable quality product to the community.  We recognize that not everyone can afford a high end custom and at the time we decided to develop the product, most of the low priced alternatives had some quality issues.  We wanted to offer an alternative to those.  Since then there have been others who have done the same.  LDM and Madcow to name two.  We are glad to have been a part of this movement and now there are a lot of affordable quality alternatives available to the community :). 
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Corran Horn on August 03, 2013, 01:49:04 PM
All I can say is I was told by more than one Admin that I was not welcome at that other forum.  What is claimed and what actually happens in practice are two different things ;).

As a member of the moderator staff, I am actually QUALIFIED to speak on what is "claimed and what actually happens", and it's exceptionally easier to do when both things are one and the same.

For that reason I have already reached out to the OP regarding this situation and hope that rather than inciting a flame war, this whole situation can be resolved peacefully and with proper understanding being brought to both parties.

Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: LUMINARA UNDULI on August 03, 2013, 01:51:52 PM
Keil, as a Moderator there I have no doubt that you are saying what you believe to be true.  As a long standing member of this community, I can tell you that I was told by two ADMINS what I posted above.  I have no reason to lie about it and, had the door been open we would have gone there to refute the post and defend our product rather than posting here.

Again, this is really about an individual spreading incorrect technical information in an attempt to slander our product, not about forum vs. forum.  I have no problem with someone objectively posting an opinion or doing a fair and honest review.  The post in question at that other forum was not such a post ;).

Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Corran Horn on August 03, 2013, 02:00:08 PM
Keil, as a Moderator there I have no doubt that you are saying what you believe to be true.  As a long standing member of this community, I can tell you that I was told by two ADMINS what I posted above.  I have no reason to lie about it and, had the door been open we would have gone there to refute the post and defend our product rather than posting here.

As a moderator there, and a member here, I'm simply trying to keep things civil Lumi, I am truly sorry that things are going in the direction that they are.  If you would like to continue the discussion, or if anyone else has concerns, by all means contact me and we can go further with it if you wish.

I'm an easy guy to reach.  Keiledge84@gmail.com or csjprops@gmail.com
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: LUMINARA UNDULI on August 03, 2013, 02:01:58 PM
Thank you Keil, I appreciate that.  I will be in touch.  Internet is sporadic at the moment, but as soon as I can get somewhere I'll hit you up.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Corran Horn on August 03, 2013, 02:07:59 PM
Thank you Keil, I appreciate that.  I will be in touch.  Internet is sporadic at the moment, but as soon as I can get somewhere I'll hit you up.


Actually what you SHOULD do....... GO GET SOME REST!!! You're on vacation for crying out loud! Hahaha.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Sanjuro on August 03, 2013, 02:25:14 PM
Unfortunate - but as was mentioned in an earlier post, when you are at the top of your industry, it breeds envy and jealously.  There are some people who for which the world will never be right. They live in their own sort of hated world, and it is a true pity.  Starkiller, Luminara, enjoy your vacation - we know there are only a handful of top, trustworthy saber smiths in the world today - and definitely you are one of them.

I think I'll go check out this other forum and see if they have anything to say about me now...

Respectfully,
Sanjuro
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Kel Ardan on August 03, 2013, 02:29:23 PM
I just want to say you guys have been great with the sabers I've purchased from you and would gladly do so again and again! Your customer service and help you provided me was above and beyond what I would expect and you have earned a life long customer here!
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: GreyJedi on August 03, 2013, 02:56:13 PM
I've seen both this thead and the one on the other site...

All I have to contribute is all this drama is unbecoming of ALL involved.

My 2 cents.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Knight50 on August 03, 2013, 02:58:07 PM
I've seen both this thead and the one on the other site...

All I have to contribute is all this drama is unbecoming of ALL involved.

My 2 cents.


well said, sir. you practically echoed my post about it.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: ARKM on August 03, 2013, 03:08:38 PM
How about this... link to the IRA forum thread in question, let people read what was stated in that thread and then let them come to THEIR OWN CONCLUSION as to what went down.  As a mod at IRA, I can state that ANY member of FX is allowed to post links to ANY IRA thread here at FX, as long as it's allowed here by the FX-Sabers forum mods/rules.

My take is that this was Darth Alice's honest opinion of a Vader's Vault saber that he took apart and that any post by other members that agreed with DA's assessment was also only stating their opinion.  It's just an opinion.  DA and anyone agreeing with him has the right to state it just as Vader's Vault and anyone agreeing with them has the right to rebut it and defend their work.  However... just because this thread is on another forum doesn't mean that there is an ulterior motive on anyone's part to defame or slander.  A person should not expect everyone out there to think their work is great, no matter how great they themselves think it is or how great everyone else they have ever talked to think it is.  There's always going to be people that disagree and that have no ulterior motives in mind.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Sunrider on August 03, 2013, 03:11:50 PM
 Guys, can we refrain from slamming forums? There will always be people on forums that disagree and make comments on things they see. These are individuals not the forum. Deanna, you don't need to defend yourself. It is an old stunt design built for budget that developed a problem somehow. No smith is perfect. I think you should log on to said forum and comment directly if you feel the need. I would welcome your company there and others would too. Until you try to post and are denied, have you really been rejected?
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: LUMINARA UNDULI on August 03, 2013, 03:19:25 PM
Sunrider, thank you.  That is very kind of you.  As I said, it was the ADMIN directly.  This is not something I just think

I believe it has been stated repeatedly in this thread there is no intent to have this be forum vs. forum, although some seem to want to create drama and make it that way.  This has to do with someone slandering a product and the subsequent posts by a couple of other members on that forum. 

We have been told specifically that we are not allowed there, so were unable to go there to refute the information so did so here.

If and when the situation changes and we are allowed there and allowed to post freely, then we will be happy to post there rather than here.

Unfortunately, this was our only avenue to refute misinformation.

I also want to thank everyone for their kind words both here and all the PMs of support we received  today.  This is such a great community and we are honored to be a part of it.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Sanjuro on August 03, 2013, 03:34:40 PM
How about this... link to the IRA forum thread in question, let people read what was stated in that thread and then let them come to THEIR OWN CONCLUSION as to what went down.  As a mod at IRA, I can state that ANY member of FX is allowed to post links to ANY IRA thread here at FX, as long as it's allowed here by the FX-Sabers forum mods/rules.

My take is that this was Darth Alice's honest opinion of a Vader's Vault saber that he took apart and that any post by other members that agreed with DA's assessment was also only stating their opinion.  It's just an opinion.  DA and anyone agreeing with him has the right to state it just as Vader's Vault and anyone agreeing with them has the right to rebut it and defend their work.  However... just because this thread is on another forum doesn't mean that there is an ulterior motive on anyone's part to defame or slander.  A person should not expect everyone out there to think their work is great, no matter how great they themselves think it is or how great everyone else they have ever talked to think it is.  There's always going to be people that disagree and that have no ulterior motives in mind.

I don't know that I agree with this.  Sometimes information is presented, in such a way as to purposefully create a negative opinion.  I believe that that was the case there. When you read the post, it creates a negative tone.  A novice reading it would not want to buy a VV saber.  No mention that the Havok is an entry level saber, no mention that splitting wiring is a normal thing, no mention that a copper pipe cap is an innovative solution.

An opinion, yes...  But a negative one.  Also, the implication that the CS board is suboptimal, and another board would really make the saber "sing".

This is not about forum vs forum - this type of negative spin opinion - on this forum as well, would not be indicative of any community with integrity.

Respectfully,
Sanjuro
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: ARKM on August 03, 2013, 03:41:20 PM
It not about the community, it's about the individual.  That how everyone should see it.  Sadly, that does not seem to be how people ARE seeing it.  What Darth Alice said is no different from leaving negative feedback in a feedback thread.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: PhoenixJedi on August 03, 2013, 03:43:39 PM
This is not a post I ever expected to have to see. Most of you know by now that I am a sabersmith from New York who is also a member of NY Jedi. As being such, I have been there while NYJ members have bought many sabers from multiple companies. VV being one of them.

I can tell you this, I have seen the insides of multiple VV sabers, and you know what? NONE of the parts on the inside have ever shocked me. The quality is not lowered by them using said 'copper endcap' as a heatsink, as a matter of fact, it has more surface area than heatsinks that 'some' other companies have used, which would give it superior heat dissipation right there.

Complaining about Yellow Heatshrink? REALLY?!?!? People are really complaining about the COLOR of the heatshrink?

Then complaining about the LED not being resistored on the CS and/or NB boards... REALLY? Its made to be able to handle that, READ a manual.

And, we all split wires. How else do you expect us to get multiple things to light up from ONE pad?

Honestly, these are all things that could have been understood with some COMMON SENSE.

As such, I would throw my support completely behind Vader's Vault anytime they need it. Alan and Deanna have taught me quite a bit since I started over 3 years ago, especially regarding wiring, sound (when I got my first CF, they were invaluable), and dealing with quite a few ANNOYING issues that have come my way while I was on the boards, especially one huge one. They do nothing but help anyone they can, even if its not with one of their own sabers.

-Phoenix

We're on vacation, so I'm trying real hard to not get on the forums so I can enjoy the time off with my family. However, something was brought to our attention by a few friends that really irked me. It seems some people at another forum took it upon themselves to take apart one of our Havocs and make several assumptions, pontificate on some really bad information and generally slander our product and compare us to another company I will not mention. Since that forum deliberately keeps out several reputable smiths so they can continue to spread bad info, I have to post this here and dirty this forum in an effort to correct the problem.

First, I don't remember  in the last 5 years where I've ever NOT helped a customer out with one of our products if they actually came to us to give us an opportunity to do so. Since these are all handmade products, we can acknowledge that nothing is ever perfect and there will be times where things happen. However, to slander a company in public and disguise it as an 'upgrade' thread, after you didn't give them an opportunity to fix something shows petty and ulterior motives. Let's get to the "issues" that were discussed.

The heatsink:

It's no secret that for the last few years....well....since the beginning really, we've used a copper pipe cap for an optics module in our entry level sabers. We admit, it's not the most glamorous looking solution, and we've changed a few things about it after getting customer feedback and our own testing. However, it WORKS. It is a VIABLE heatsink as it is made from COPPER and does a fine job of transferring heat to the hilt which is the only job a heatsink has to accomplish. To compare what we use to a chrome plated zinc alloy nut with no heat transfer ability shows great ignorance. The copper cap has more than adequate mass and conductivity to pull heat away from the LED and get it to open air to dissipate. We have a design that is 'machined' to fit, and it is quite a bit more expensive to get mass produced but when we find the right cost balance we'll make it happen. This however, is mainly aesthetic and not necessarily for any kind of functional improvement.  For reference, in thermal conductivity, copper trumps aluminum by a long shot and aluminum only has 60% of the thermal conductivity of copper. So to replace the existing copper heatsink with an aluminum one was really just for aesthetics and offers no improvement in heat transfer and to postulate it as anything else is plain stupid.  In fact it creates a reduction in thermal conductivity so is an inferior solution for functionality.

The ...ah....'color' of the heatshrink. You don't like yellow....um....ok.

On certain colors, we don't resist the main LED. Yep, you caught us. We had the Shard made to operate on a single 3.7v cell so we wouldn't have to worry about resisting main LEDs except in the cases of reds/ambers. You see, current draw is a CONSEQUENCE, and when the vf of the LED is close the source voltage of the battery, it only draws what current it needs, therefore, no resistor is needed. Occasionally, and VERY occasionally a Tri-Rebel will draw more than the 2A that the onboard transistor will allow. In this case, the genius that is Erv' put in a digital control so you can limit the LED. It is the onboard "Drive" parameter. does it work for huge voltage drops like with a red? Nope. This is why we use an external resistor on the red LEDs.

Splitting Wires: Any sabersmith worth his solder, learns early on about wiring economy in order to avoid the spaghetti messes seen on poorly wired sabers. When wiring compact sabers, It is often necessary to split, or share wires with common polarity in order to reduce the overall number of wires in the hilt. This does not negatively affect the saber in any way. We also use a very expensive, high quality wire. It is thin, yes, but is rated REALLY well and it's equal cannot be found here domestically so it is imported. If you choose to use a separate lead for everything in order to not confuse yourself, this is fine, but don't use it as a talking point to try and slam another company.

Bringing up our older 'prototype' stunts to compare them to our work today is pretty silly. Our older stunts were sold as "prototypes" as we worked through what materials and techniques we were going to use. Our older AAA spring pack worked for a time, and after feed back that showed the spring pack interfered with the Pololu's ability to function properly as impacts would often cause the Pololu to reset in our stunts. This is why we now use the single 18650 solution in a nice and tight holder for both stunts and sound versions. If there is a problem with a saber shutting down on impact now, it is most likely due to another issue, like a bad battery PCB, or a loose SD card. But since no one came to us with any questions or issues, I guess we'll never know. Also, to criticize someone's work for not functioning after it has changed hands 2, 3+ times is petty.

I've always felt that we go over and above for our customers and the community in general. We often go over and above even our stated warranty, so if someone who obtained one of our sabers encountered a problem, we would have loved to have been given the opportunity to demonstrate our willingness to accommodate them. Normally, I wouldn't even respond to something so petty while on vacation, but when a post was done not in the effort to educate or to even show off a redux of someones work, but rather as an attempt to slander our reputation and business, it required my attention. So if anyone has any questions as to why we do things on any of our sabers, please feel free to ask. Also, if any customers have feedback on something, we're always willing to listen and if it makes sense, change things based on it. That's what REAL sabersmiths do. It's unfortunate that the offending post was made, and I guess it achieved it's purpose of being hurtful. I just felt the need to come in and correct the misinformation that is spread as it is the habit of a certain group to speak loudly and as often as possible to make people believe something is true, even if it's utter fabrication.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Sanjuro on August 03, 2013, 03:53:13 PM
It not about the community, it's about the individual.  That how everyone should see it.  Sadly, that does not seem to be how people ARE seeing it.  What Darth Alice said is no different from leaving negative feedback in a feedback thread.

Yes - agreed - negative feedback.  But unjust negative feedback.  It is not about an individual - a community is made up of the individuals.  And it this is tolerated from an individual posting, then this reflects the community as a whole.  Truthful posts are one thing.  That post was not that.

Respectfully,
Sanjuro
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: QUI-GON JINN on August 03, 2013, 04:04:42 PM
It would really be poor form to leave negative feedback for a manufacturer of a product that was purchased used,  and not new. If Darth Alice had concerns about the saber,  he could have contacted Vader's Vault about it before simply leaving what is, in essence, a negative review of an older product.  Honestly,  if he thinks that one was bad internally,  he should see some of my older personal saber's guts....not pretty,  but functional.  :-[  ;)

Oh,  and by the way,  all of this "forum vs. forum" crap should stop...it's really childish.  :(
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: ARKM on August 03, 2013, 04:05:49 PM
It not about the community, it's about the individual.  That how everyone should see it.  Sadly, that does not seem to be how people ARE seeing it.  What Darth Alice said is no different from leaving negative feedback in a feedback thread.

Yes - agreed - negative feedback.  But unjust negative feedback.  It is not about an individual - a community is made up of the individuals.  And it this is tolerated from an individual posting, then this reflects the community as a whole.  Truthful posts are one thing.  That post was not that.

Respectfully,
Sanjuro

That's your opinion.  I respectfully disagree.  You're stating that Darth Alice does not believe his own statements are true and is therefore lying from some ulterior motive.  I believe that he is stating what he truly believes and that his intent was not to slander VV's work but to honestly express how he felt about said work.  I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with his assessment, but that does not mean that he is stating something that he himself does not truly believe.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Sanjuro on August 03, 2013, 04:13:34 PM
It not about the community, it's about the individual.  That how everyone should see it.  Sadly, that does not seem to be how people ARE seeing it.  What Darth Alice said is no different from leaving negative feedback in a feedback thread.

Yes - agreed - negative feedback.  But unjust negative feedback.  It is not about an individual - a community is made up of the individuals.  And it this is tolerated from an individual posting, then this reflects the community as a whole.  Truthful posts are one thing.  That post was not that.

Respectfully,
Sanjuro

That's your opinion.  I respectfully disagree.  You're stating that Darth Alice does not believe his own statements are true and is therefore lying from some ulterior motive.  I believe that he is stating what he truly believes and that his intent was not to slander VV's work but to honestly express how he felt about said work.  I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with his assessment, but that does not mean that he is stating something that he himself does not truly believe.

Yes - my opinion.  But what he is saying is not the truth.  And just because he believes it to be true is not a justification.  He can be educated, corrected, and then his post corrected.  But to leave that uneducated "opinion" out there is not honorable.

Respectfully,
Sanjuro
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: ARKM on August 03, 2013, 04:21:43 PM
It not about the community, it's about the individual.  That how everyone should see it.  Sadly, that does not seem to be how people ARE seeing it.  What Darth Alice said is no different from leaving negative feedback in a feedback thread.

Yes - agreed - negative feedback.  But unjust negative feedback.  It is not about an individual - a community is made up of the individuals.  And it this is tolerated from an individual posting, then this reflects the community as a whole.  Truthful posts are one thing.  That post was not that.

Respectfully,
Sanjuro

That's your opinion.  I respectfully disagree.  You're stating that Darth Alice does not believe his own statements are true and is therefore lying from some ulterior motive.  I believe that he is stating what he truly believes and that his intent was not to slander VV's work but to honestly express how he felt about said work.  I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with his assessment, but that does not mean that he is stating something that he himself does not truly believe.

Yes - my opinion.  But what he is saying is not the truth.  And just because he believes it to be true is not a justification.  He can be educated, corrected, and then his post corrected.  But to leave that uneducated "opinion" out there is not honorable.

Respectfully,
Sanjuro

Ah I see what you're getting at.  I'm sorry if I insulted you by assuming that I thought that you thought that DA was intentionally lying.  I can't say that I agree with your assessment of the situation as I am not knowledgeable enough in electronics to do so.  Both Vader's Vault and Darth Alice are very skilled in what they do.  However some people differ in opinion on how a thing should be done, when there is more than one way to do it.  Perhaps this is all this issue really boils down to.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Nick Knight on August 03, 2013, 04:34:43 PM
I wonder if the person who originally left the negative feed back is reading all this telling his apprentice

" Good, good as the forum bickers among itself we seed hate among them. With each passing moment the little seeds of mistrust grow until no one will trust anyone and we are one step closer to bring down this community and at last we will have are revenge!"

Just a little star wars humor to lighten the mood. Please don't flame the heck out of me.  :o
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Sunrider on August 03, 2013, 05:55:33 PM
It not about the community, it's about the individual.  That how everyone should see it.  Sadly, that does not seem to be how people ARE seeing it.  What Darth Alice said is no different from leaving negative feedback in a feedback thread.

Yes - agreed - negative feedback.  But unjust negative feedback.  It is not about an individual - a community is made up of the individuals.  And it this is tolerated from an individual posting, then this reflects the community as a whole.  Truthful posts are one thing.  That post was not that.

Respectfully,
Sanjuro

 Unjust? This is your opinion. Is he not entitled to his opinion? Why does 1 opinion reflect the community as a whole? This attitude only helps to promote isolation in the community. This us and them attitude is what perpetuates these negative divisions in the community. Truth? I don't remember seeing outright lies or fabrication of problems in that post. Again people should be entitled to their opinion.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Corran Horn on August 03, 2013, 06:08:01 PM
The opinions expressed by Darth Alice in that thread are his to express.  He felt that some aspects of the build should have been done a different way and this is his choice.  Altering his thread to express an opinion that is NOT his would be even more dishonorable.

It will not be modified to express an opinion that is not true to DA's own feelings towards the work.

If leaving it there is a sign of the type of community that the IRA is, then good.  It shows that we have no problem letting people have their OWN opinion, not the opinion someone else feels they should have.

By that same token, wouldn't that imply that an individual here that feels that posts should be edited if someone has a difference of opinion, would indicate that apparently the entire community is that way? Then if that is the case, why would anyone share an opinion instead of just waiting for someone else to TELL them what their opinion should be?

Now, that being said, THIS is FX-Sabers.  THAT is the Imperial Royal Arms.  Let us all leave it that way as I said about 14 posts ago.

Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Iggy on August 03, 2013, 06:11:31 PM
Holy mess. This has turned out quite interesting...

I personally have a VV stunt with a CS that I got a while ago. Mine also turned off with a bump to the saber. I found that it wasn't the board, it wasn't the LED, it was the battery holder. The prongs were not holding when I hit the saber on the blade, i.e. when I had a blade in it and hit the saber straight down (blade tip down) the battery moved just enough to reboot the saber. It was an easy fix to fix the prongs.

Just an extra 2 cents to add. I am sure we are up to a few dollars now though... ???
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Darth Smorgis on August 03, 2013, 06:50:47 PM
The opinions expressed by Darth Alice in that thread are his to express.  He felt that some aspects of the build should have been done a different way and this is his choice.

Opinions are one thing, but Darth Alice was "grabbing at straws" to find things to try and shoot down Vaders Vault's work.
The "Yellow heatshrink" comment was so over the top, it was almost funny.  The sad part is I think he was serious.

He also makes insulting remarks like "the original installer used a high tech material called aluminum furnace duct tape".  Sorry, but the way he goes about saying things is very sarcastic and disrespectful to say the least.

As for the copper end cap being used as the led holder/heatsink, I just used the same thing in three different stunt sabers I just finished for some kids in my neighborhood.  Works great.  Not sure what the problem is there.

I have owned 3 of these sabers in question and not one of them has failed on me in ANY way, shape, or form.
I will leave it at that.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Sanjuro on August 03, 2013, 06:51:06 PM
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion.  It should be encouraged.  In fact, a healthy discussion of different views is great.

However, what is not healthy, and biased, is implying that something is wrong just because it is different - or not the way they would do it.  I am certainly not saying anyone should not express a different opinion.  What I am saying is that expressing an opinion, and saying that other opinions are somehow wrong or incorrect, is not honorable.

This has, and always will be a community board to share ideas and helpful critiques.  Keep it so.

Respectfully,
Sanjuro
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Sanjuro on August 03, 2013, 07:01:09 PM
It not about the community, it's about the individual.  That how everyone should see it.  Sadly, that does not seem to be how people ARE seeing it.  What Darth Alice said is no different from leaving negative feedback in a feedback thread.

Yes - agreed - negative feedback.  But unjust negative feedback.  It is not about an individual - a community is made up of the individuals.  And it this is tolerated from an individual posting, then this reflects the community as a whole.  Truthful posts are one thing.  That post was not that.

Respectfully,
Sanjuro

 Unjust? This is your opinion. Is he not entitled to his opinion? Why does 1 opinion reflect the community as a whole? This attitude only helps to promote isolation in the community. This us and them attitude is what perpetuates these negative divisions in the community. Truth? I don't remember seeing outright lies or fabrication of problems in that post. Again people should be entitled to their opinion.

Agreed - everyone is entitled to an opinion.  There is nothing wrong with that.  There are truths, there are lies, and there is always that gray area of half truths, innuendo, and implication.  That is what I have issue with.  We as individuals make up the community.  We should all strive to present what we post in a honest manner.  Otherwise, the boards devolve into the hundreds of other boards out there in the internet.  That is why need to be careful about what, and how we post.

The fact that that post has inspired this discussion is an indication of how we need to look to ourselves to be careful as to how we post.

Again, I respect all different opinions - however the opinions should have some real facts behind them, and respect the other opinions as well.

Wouldn't we all agree?

Respectfully,
Sanjuro
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: LUMINARA UNDULI on August 03, 2013, 07:10:28 PM
The opinions expressed by Darth Alice in that thread are his to express.  He felt that some aspects of the build should have been done a different way and this is his choice.  Altering his thread to express an opinion that is NOT his would be even more dishonorable.

It will not be modified to express an opinion that is not true to DA's own feelings towards the work.

If leaving it there is a sign of the type of community that the IRA is, then good.  It shows that we have no problem letting people have their OWN opinion, not the opinion someone else feels they should have.

By that same token, wouldn't that imply that an individual here that feels that posts should be edited if someone has a difference of opinion, would indicate that apparently the entire community is that way? Then if that is the case, why would anyone share an opinion instead of just waiting for someone else to TELL them what their opinion should be?

Now, that being said, THIS is FX-Sabers.  THAT is the Imperial Royal Arms.  Let us all leave it that way as I said about 14 posts ago.

Had that been the case, that it was an honest review with no agenda, there would be no conversation about it here. 

It is a lie to assert that an aluminum heatsink is better in any way save aesthetic to a copper heatsink.  It is simply a fact that copper is the better heatsink.  Does the aluminum heatsink he replaced it with look better?  Possibly, but it is inferior in functionality.  I was not aware that heatsinks in an entry level saber should be pretty.  I am fairly certain that the majority of my customers would prefer a functional heatsink to a pretty one considering they never see the heatsink.

The aluminum tape is there to insure the heatsink stays both snug and centered.  Could it be done differently, sure.  This is an economical method which does the job and is in no way substandard.  Again, could something else be used, sure.  This is what we chose.

Heatshrink color?  Really?

Wire gauge?  That wire is imported for us and is rated at 4A plus which is far more than most ever draw from their sabers and higher than a lot of wire with a higher gauge.  Again, asserting differently is simply an untruth.

I do not object, as was said earlier, to an honest review.  However, to spread misinformation and use that misinformation as a way to attack someone, that is in poor taste.


EDIT: To add, if said forum is OK with this kind of spinning, then I am very very glad I am here at the FX-SABERs forums where we support one another and do our best to be honest and truthful.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Wookiee Man on August 03, 2013, 07:21:58 PM
(https://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi953.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae12%2Fscrappy72j%2FROCKS.gif&hash=39dcece9bba1fe2575bd0c60bee3643c91ab650d)
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: JANGO FETT on August 03, 2013, 07:23:33 PM
I do take issue with Darth Alice saying this
Quote
Jul 29, 2013 at 7:08am
Post by DarthAlice on Jul 29, 2013 at 7:08am
it reminds me of my 1st saber that I bought 3 yrs ago, it was an Ultasaber Prophecy stunt, and had a chrome nut hot glued into a 1" piece of blade for the heatsink with the led glued on with a mini-maglite diffuser on top....very similar quality!

(https://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1189.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz433%2FDarthAlice88%2FVVhilt5.jpg&hash=a54afa9457cbea292d6db79685a8b35414511b52) (http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z433/DarthAlice88/VVhilt5.jpg)


(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/388445_239244232796973_1556180430_n.jpg) (https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/388445_239244232796973_1556180430_n.jpg)

The only technique they have in common, is that they are homemade.
It is my OPINION that Darth Alice's definition of quality is flawed in this instance.

references
quality - definition of quality by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/quality)
3.b. Degree or grade of excellence

Which metal conduct heat best (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Which_metal_conduct_heat_best)
A comparison of the Thermal Conductivity of several common metals (higher values indicates better heat conductivity) is shown below. Silvers is best but cost makes copper a pretty good choice:

Metal: Conductivity
Steel: 50
Brass: 109
Aluminum: 250
Gold: 310
Copper: 401
Silver: 429

Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: C-3P0 on August 03, 2013, 08:01:27 PM
JANGO with the "pew pew"!
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Jm419 on August 03, 2013, 08:22:05 PM
Of course copper is the better heatsink.  As has been mentioned above, anyone who's had a science class knows that much.  Frankly, the sheer amount of surface area of the piece also helps the heat conduction.  It's just a fact; the aluminum heatsink is functionally inferior to the copper heatsink.

For the record, in all my time at Fx-Sabers, never have I had my opinion modified for me, nor have I been told what that opinion should be. 
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Sunrider on August 03, 2013, 08:22:56 PM
The opinions expressed by Darth Alice in that thread are his to express.  He felt that some aspects of the build should have been done a different way and this is his choice.

Opinions are one thing, but Darth Alice was "grabbing at straws" to find things to try and shoot down Vaders Vault's work.
The "Yellow heatshrink" comment was so over the top, it was almost funny.  The sad part is I think he was serious.

He also makes insulting remarks like "the original installer used a high tech material called aluminum furnace duct tape".  Sorry, but the way he goes about saying things is very sarcastic and disrespectful to say the least.

As for the copper end cap being used as the led holder/heatsink, I just used the same thing in three different stunt sabers I just finished for some kids in my neighborhood.  Works great.  Not sure what the problem is there.

I have owned 3 of these sabers in question and not one of them has failed on me in ANY way, shape, or form.
I will leave it at that.

 At any rate he is still entitled to his opinion as you are yours. Even if it sounds silly to you. I see you expressing your feelings on the matter here but why not in the said thread?

It not about the community, it's about the individual.  That how everyone should see it.  Sadly, that does not seem to be how people ARE seeing it.  What Darth Alice said is no different from leaving negative feedback in a feedback thread.

Yes - agreed - negative feedback.  But unjust negative feedback.  It is not about an individual - a community is made up of the individuals.  And it this is tolerated from an individual posting, then this reflects the community as a whole.  Truthful posts are one thing.  That post was not that.

Respectfully,
Sanjuro

 Unjust? This is your opinion. Is he not entitled to his opinion? Why does 1 opinion reflect the community as a whole? This attitude only helps to promote isolation in the community. This us and them attitude is what perpetuates these negative divisions in the community. Truth? I don't remember seeing outright lies or fabrication of problems in that post. Again people should be entitled to their opinion.

Agreed - everyone is entitled to an opinion.  There is nothing wrong with that.  There are truths, there are lies, and there is always that gray area of half truths, innuendo, and implication.  That is what I have issue with.  We as individuals make up the community.  We should all strive to present what we post in a honest manner.  Otherwise, the boards devolve into the hundreds of other boards out there in the internet.  That is why need to be careful about what, and how we post.

The fact that that post has inspired this discussion is an indication of how we need to look to ourselves to be careful as to how we post.

Again, I respect all different opinions - however the opinions should have some real facts behind them, and respect the other opinions as well.

Wouldn't we all agree?

Respectfully,
Sanjuro

 However fact filled he is still entitled to his opinion. Again I see you expressing your feelings here, but why not in said thread?

The opinions expressed by Darth Alice in that thread are his to express.  He felt that some aspects of the build should have been done a different way and this is his choice.  Altering his thread to express an opinion that is NOT his would be even more dishonorable.

It will not be modified to express an opinion that is not true to DA's own feelings towards the work.

If leaving it there is a sign of the type of community that the IRA is, then good.  It shows that we have no problem letting people have their OWN opinion, not the opinion someone else feels they should have.

By that same token, wouldn't that imply that an individual here that feels that posts should be edited if someone has a difference of opinion, would indicate that apparently the entire community is that way? Then if that is the case, why would anyone share an opinion instead of just waiting for someone else to TELL them what their opinion should be?

Now, that being said, THIS is FX-Sabers.  THAT is the Imperial Royal Arms.  Let us all leave it that way as I said about 14 posts ago.

Had that been the case, that it was an honest review with no agenda, there would be no conversation about it here. 

It is a lie to assert that an aluminum heatsink is better in any way save aesthetic to a copper heatsink.  It is simply a fact that copper is the better heatsink.  Does the aluminum heatsink he replaced it with look better?  Possibly, but it is inferior in functionality.  I was not aware that heatsinks in an entry level saber should be pretty.  I am fairly certain that the majority of my customers would prefer a functional heatsink to a pretty one considering they never see the heatsink.

The aluminum tape is there to insure the heatsink stays both snug and centered.  Could it be done differently, sure.  This is an economical method which does the job and is in no way substandard.  Again, could something else be used, sure.  This is what we chose.

Heatshrink color?  Really?

Wire gauge?  That wire is imported for us and is rated at 4A plus which is far more than most ever draw from their sabers and higher than a lot of wire with a higher gauge.  Again, asserting differently is simply an untruth.

I do not object, as was said earlier, to an honest review.  However, to spread misinformation and use that misinformation as a way to attack someone, that is in poor taste.


EDIT: To add, if said forum is OK with this kind of spinning, then I am very very glad I am here at the FX-SABERs forums where we support one another and do our best to be honest and truthful.

I do take issue with Darth Alice saying this
Quote
Jul 29, 2013 at 7:08am
Post by DarthAlice on Jul 29, 2013 at 7:08am
it reminds me of my 1st saber that I bought 3 yrs ago, it was an Ultasaber Prophecy stunt, and had a chrome nut hot glued into a 1" piece of blade for the heatsink with the led glued on with a mini-maglite diffuser on top....very similar quality!

(https://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1189.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz433%2FDarthAlice88%2FVVhilt5.jpg&hash=a54afa9457cbea292d6db79685a8b35414511b52) (http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z433/DarthAlice88/VVhilt5.jpg)


(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/388445_239244232796973_1556180430_n.jpg) (https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/388445_239244232796973_1556180430_n.jpg)

The only technique they have in common, is that they are homemade.
It is my OPINION that Darth Alice's definition of quality is flawed in this instance.

references
quality - definition of quality by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/quality)
3.b. Degree or grade of excellence

Which metal conduct heat best (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Which_metal_conduct_heat_best)
A comparison of the Thermal Conductivity of several common metals (higher values indicates better heat conductivity) is shown below. Silvers is best but cost makes copper a pretty good choice:

Metal: Conductivity
Steel: 50
Brass: 109
Aluminum: 250
Gold: 310
Copper: 401
Silver: 429



I'm not defending anything in DA's thread in any way but to make copper vs aluminum black and white is silly. Mass and thermal bond are more important factors for sinking heat. Both can work great but design is key. Material is secondary except in extreme applications. For example, most star boards are aluminum, but 40w star boards are copper.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: JANGO FETT on August 03, 2013, 08:45:17 PM
@ Sunrider re read my post.
DA compared a VV copper/aluminium assembly to a US polycarbonate/steel nut assembly.
He is quoted saying they are "very similar quality".
It is my opinion that he is incorrect, and the differences are "black and white"

Want to do the pepsi challenge with a direct drive tri rebel set up on a polycarbonate/steel nut assembly vs. a copper aluminium set up to see which fries the led optics and led lens first?

I'm pretty sure I'll win.


 
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Sunrider on August 03, 2013, 09:22:00 PM
@ Sunrider re read my post.
DA compared a VV copper/aluminium assembly to a US polycarbonate/steel nut assembly.
He is quoted saying they are "very similar quality".
It is my opinion that he is incorrect, and the differences are "black and white"

Want to do the pepsi challenge with a direct drive tri rebel set up on a polycarbonate/steel nut assembly vs. a copper aluminium set up to see which fries the led optics and led lens first?

I'm pretty sure I'll win.

 Reread my post. ;) I in no way am defending what DA said. I think the copper cap is better than the nut. You and Deanna referred to the fact and specs that copper is better than aluminum. This is not necessarily true. It depends on other factors.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: JANGO FETT on August 03, 2013, 09:35:18 PM
I did not. DA compared a polycarbonate/steel nut assembly is similar quality to a copper/aluminium assembly. I disagreed. copper and aluminum is better.

I showed by the numbers there is a difference between copper and aluminium vs. steel in conductivity.
THE VV led assembly is better than the old US one DA referenced.

DA refers to in the 3rd post in his VV upgrade thread on the IRA.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Jm419 on August 03, 2013, 09:52:37 PM
I'm not defending anything in DA's thread in any way but to make copper vs aluminum black and white is silly. Mass and thermal bond are more important factors for sinking heat. Both can work great but design is key. Material is secondary except in extreme applications. For example, most star boards are aluminum, but 40w star boards are copper.

Just want to clear something up here, before the error gets spread.

Mass is absolutely not a factor in this situation.  It doesn't even count into the calculation for a circular heatsink, which I've reproduced here:

q = [Pi(D)/2]+2[(Pi(D)^2)/4] {[Sqrt(hKD)] [Tb-Ti] [tanh(Sqrt(4h/KD))L]}

where
q = total heat transfer (in this case, loss)
Pi = constant
D = diameter (if solid)
h = enthalpy
K = thermal conductivity
Tb = temperature of LED
Ti = temperature of air
tanh = hyperbolic tangent (a function)
L = length of heatsink

What each section of the equation means is that we're calculating the surface area of the heatsink, then multiplying it by various factors including the enthalpy (which varies) and the thermal conductivity of the material.

While it's true that the variance between aluminum and copper for a geometry such as this (assuming geometries are identical) is only about 2%, let's see what happens if you double surface area:

Aluminum heatsink 1 inch in diameter and 1 inch in length
q = [[Pi*(.025 m)/2][Sqrt(15 W/m^2*C(200 W/m^2)(.025 m))][80*C-20*C][tanh(Sqrt((4(15 W/m*C))/((200 W/m^2)(.025 m))).025 m]]

q = 1.7674 Watts

Copper heatsink 1 inch in diameter and 1 inch in length, but with a 3/4" circular cutout inside (to simulate a pipe cap)
q = [[[Pi*(.025 m)/2]+[Pi*(.02 m)/2]][Sqrt(15 W/m^2*C(200 W/m^2)(.025 m))][80*C-20*C][tanh(Sqrt((4(15 W/m*C))/((200 W/m^2)(.025 m))).025 m]]

q = 3.17689 Watts

Geometry, rather than mass or material, is important.  Mass of a heatsink makes no difference to the heat transfer.  Absolutely none.  Material does have a slight impact, but Sunrider is correct when he says it's secondary.  What's far more important - indeed, what varies linearly with q, so if you double it you double your heat transfer - is geometry. 

In this situation, it's hard to argue that the aluminum heatsink is superior. 
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Sunrider on August 03, 2013, 10:32:44 PM
 
I did not. DA compared a polycarbonate/steel nut assembly is similar quality to a copper/aluminium assembly. I disagreed. copper and aluminum is better.

I showed by the numbers there is a difference between copper and aluminium vs. steel in conductivity.
THE VV led assembly is better than the old US one DA referenced.

DA refers to in the 3rd post in his VV upgrade thread on the IRA.


 Ok my mistake.

I'm not defending anything in DA's thread in any way but to make copper vs aluminum black and white is silly. Mass and thermal bond are more important factors for sinking heat. Both can work great but design is key. Material is secondary except in extreme applications. For example, most star boards are aluminum, but 40w star boards are copper.

Just want to clear something up here, before the error gets spread.

Mass is absolutely not a factor in this situation.  It doesn't even count into the calculation for a circular heatsink, which I've reproduced here:

q = [Pi(D)/2]+2[(Pi(D)^2)/4] {[Sqrt(hKD)] [Tb-Ti] [tanh(Sqrt(4h/KD))L]}

where
q = total heat transfer (in this case, loss)
Pi = constant
D = diameter (if solid)
h = enthalpy
K = thermal conductivity
Tb = temperature of LED
Ti = temperature of air
tanh = hyperbolic tangent (a function)
L = length of heatsink

What each section of the equation means is that we're calculating the surface area of the heatsink, then multiplying it by various factors including the enthalpy (which varies) and the thermal conductivity of the material.

While it's true that the variance between aluminum and copper for a geometry such as this (assuming geometries are identical) is only about 2%, let's see what happens if you double surface area:

Aluminum heatsink 1 inch in diameter and 1 inch in length
q = [[Pi*(.025 m)/2][Sqrt(15 W/m^2*C(200 W/m^2)(.025 m))][80*C-20*C][tanh(Sqrt((4(15 W/m*C))/((200 W/m^2)(.025 m))).025 m]]

q = 1.7674 Watts

Copper heatsink 1 inch in diameter and 1 inch in length, but with a 3/4" circular cutout inside (to simulate a pipe cap)
q = [[[Pi*(.025 m)/2]+[Pi*(.02 m)/2]][Sqrt(15 W/m^2*C(200 W/m^2)(.025 m))][80*C-20*C][tanh(Sqrt((4(15 W/m*C))/((200 W/m^2)(.025 m))).025 m]]

q = 3.17689 Watts

Geometry, rather than mass or material, is important.  Mass of a heatsink makes no difference to the heat transfer.  Absolutely none.  Material does have a slight impact, but Sunrider is correct when he says it's secondary.  What's far more important - indeed, what varies linearly with q, so if you double it you double your heat transfer - is geometry. 

In this situation, it's hard to argue that the aluminum heatsink is superior. 

That is why I said design is key. I never said the same design heatsink made of aluminum would be better than copper. I said aluminum can work as well as copper with a better design. Aluminum is pretty good as that is what our star boards are made of.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Jm419 on August 03, 2013, 10:35:58 PM
I'm agreeing with you; the material makes little difference.  However, the mass makes none - I just wanted to clear that up.  :)
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Amptrooper on August 03, 2013, 11:51:22 PM
EVERYONE is welcome at the IRA! I have personally sent invites to many saber smiths either directly or through other means. We so far have not banned anyone from the IRA since day one except for those rare people that come there and post nasty stuff or trying to sell hand bags and shoes on every topic (spammers). We also have had at one time a JSSDC member and FX Guild member as part of the IRA early on.

Also, it is a rule and a rule that is enforced as good as we can for a small mod team, that we do not allow anyone be they Mod, Admin, or forum member to slam or bash others be they members of the IRA or any other forum, be they saber builders of any forum or other forums. Do we miss things from time to time? Yes but we usually do find it eventually and we always first ask the person that posted it to edit the post themselves to be compliant if not, we do it. So it may be up there longer then one would like but we like to give members the chance to correct things themselves first. Often when you point out that something is against the rules they realize what they said and fix it with no problem however, it does make some people upset as they feel they have a right to say what ever they want. But, in the big picture the goal is to be a community. There is however a fine line that we have to walk.
People are still entitled to their own opinion about the sabers they purchase. As long as that opinion isn't bashing and slamming then should we remove every negative thing that someone says whether they are right in their opinion or wrong?

When someone post something negative be they right or wrong about a saber they bought, that does not mean that forum as a whole is against a saber smith or a forum. It means that one forum member of that forum had a problem with a saber. It wasn't brought to the saber smith, it wasn't brought to the team members of the forum that it was posted on nor should it be. It was just a person who sees things the way he sees them and posts about it. Should I remove those posts because that person does not see things in a positive way about the saber he purchased?

If someone posts something here about one of my sabers and it is negative and, I being a member here but not a very active one as such, get info about it or happen upon it myself and I disagree with the post, should I then take that back to my forum and make a post about how that forum is bad mouthing and so forth?

Why not get a hold of the person that made the post and talk with him about it and maybe come to terms about whatever, It could end up being a win win! May end up with a new customer or at lest a better understanding. Who knows?

This thing that started along time ago about the IRA being against FX is unfounded and not true. I extended my hand to the leader/leaders of FX and of JSSDC and of TCSS. Some have taken me up on that and are still there. They come and contribute to the IRA and they come here and to other forums and have fun equally with no problems whatsoever. There are actually MANY people who do that. We fully allow at the IRA for people to post links and openly talk about all the good stuff going on at other forums including FX. Heck, i have a lot of really close friends here. Some I owe a lot of what I know today about LED sabers as the transition from Plasma blade sabers and drivers and EL sabers was frustrating at times. I still consider them to be my friends.
 
The IRA is not interested in putting a wall up and having things as, us and them. That, was unfortunately done for us by the few that labeled us from the start. At the same time I was sending messages to the forum leaders inviting them to the IRA and letting them know that our goal is to work with them and not against. The original vision was to be a good place for noobs who are wanting to learn. A place where they can come and ask all the questions they want and we will help them and get them to the point where they can know what they are talking about when they come to other forums. We started setting things up that way on the old platform years ago. We were posting a lot of detailed tutorials. Two of which were made for the IRA and posted by a JSSDC/FX Guild member. We still have and use those same ones.

What I am getting at with all this, is we are an open forum for all people be they saber builders, forum owners, forum members, aliens from mars or any other planet for that matter and so on. Also, making things public that should be dealt with on a one on one level with whom ever made the post that one disagrees with can hurt people that have nothing to do with said post. Even more, it brings bad politics and gets people building on those bad politics. THat is not fair to anyone especially those that come to these forums to enjoy the sabers and the community as a whole.

Also, what one person thinks on another forum is not the mindset of everyone of that forum. Nothing fair about that.

Look, this community is suppose to be just that, a community. When can we get on with being a community as a whole.
The IRA is ready at anytime for that!  :)  It couldn't come soon enough!
I think we all have a lot to bring to the table that everyone would benefit from. Each forum has it's own style and products!
 
These politics need to stop. There is no good reason for them and at the end of the day the ones that suffer most are the forum members who came to learn about or enjoy sabers and to be a part of one of the coolest props communities in the world!
When is it time to bury the hatchet? I don't know. Waiting for that day.

Starkiller and Lumi,
   I don't know who told you that you can't be a member at the IRA but I do know that I invited y'all once and you told me you are busy with a bunch of other forums and probably could not find the time. I understand that 100%. I know how it is to be pulled a 100 different directions. Gets to be too much to keep up with. We have had our differences and most of it stems from misunderstanding and not willing to fully hear or trust each other. I will say publicly since it was brought up that yes, one of our last communications I said for y'all to just say away from the IRA and leave us alone.  I did not ban you from and if you joined would not remove you. As you know, it was said in response to not in lieu of during a lot of back in forth in which both you had things to say just as I did. I got tired of the back and forth and with that statement, the argument stopped such as was the goal. From then till now everything seamed to be going pretty smooth. I figured everything was cool with us and the tiff was over. Heck, that was quite a while ago. I actually thought there was some good things starting to happen. I mean, people talk about VV on the IRA and rarely is it anything bad. People post links to your post at the IRA. People even came to defend the post that your talking about here. i think it was an IRA Admin that said "These VV stunts are pretty good for the price point, they make a decent little hilt to upgrade or customize." and, people correcting some of the statements that the first post said one of which was a moderator. So please stop thinking that when people say something you don't like or agree with that it is some sort of plot or spin by the IRA Team. We do not sit around trying to come up with ways to make your life miserable. I personally don't really know some of these people as I am way to busy trying to do my sabers and work on the forum. As is the same with the other admins. I wish you would believe me when i say that we have no ill will to y'all at all. That is a solid and honest truth. There is no weird plots or anything. Our Admin Mod area is not filled with talk about VV or FX or anyone else for that matter. It is filled with talk about how to continue to offer the best forum experience to our members. I think it sucks that you feel that there is some sort of spin against you over there. I wish that was different. In turn though we very much feel that we are a target as well. Seems that feeling goes both ways and the ones that truly suffer are forum members.
 
I think it is well past time to start hearing each other and... believing each other! That last one is a big part of the problem. It has a lot to do with trust and who, one listens to and believes.
I don't know what else I can say that I haven't already.

VV, if y'all want to talk then lets do that but lest do that together not on the forums as people don't want all the political stuff. 
Yoda, if you want to talk to see what things we can work out for the betterment of the community as a whole then I think that would be a great idea!

I just feel that all of this needs to be over with once and for all and to embrace differences.
 
Please do not read this as an attack or trying to make anyone look bad or out of anger. i am not angry or attempting to do anything harmful. I am just tried of this whole political thing and just want the forums to be a community even when some one says something that another does not like or agree with. It is tiring being taken the wrong way. I know it is hard to put emotion into posts.
So I ask that people read this with my intent to be full of concern and care and offering of myself to bring about change in many things. That has to go both ways, with trust, Mutual respect and willingness to find understanding in differences and different ways of doing and being.

Thank you all for hearing me out and to FX for the opportunity! 
God bless!

Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: JANGO FETT on August 04, 2013, 12:10:54 AM
In luminaria's earlier posts in thread, they stated, not 1, but 2 admin stated that they would not be allowed registering on the IRA.
A message to correct some slanderous misanformation (http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?topic=40890.msg545879#msg545879)

As the owner of the IRA, was this an earlier policy? I have no reason to doubt lumi, but it contradicts the first statement in your post. Admin being the creators of policy, with mods being enforcers of said policy.

Should Lumi provide names of said admin, what then? I note there are only 3 that I can find, currently.
AmpTrooper
Luke Skywalker (not our current one. different person.)
Jedi Yar-Nala


Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Master Valon on August 04, 2013, 12:25:33 AM
Wow. What a great post, Amp. I know we've never talked, but I've seen your posts and I admire the mindset you go into these things with. Now, I watched this unfurl here and on IRA all day today, and just kinda held my tongue. But after Amp's post, I feel like I can add my .02 cents (we must have a pretty big pot going on by now, with all these pennies in this thread! :P )

First and foremost, bar none, the reason I love this hobby so much is the great sense of community. All of the SW-based groups I am a part of, Rebel Legion, 501st, TCSS, FX, IRA, all of them- the thing I treasure most about them are the people. Sure, we all have a love for SW props and costumes, and that's the common ground we share. But the unconditional generosity, and kindness, and kinship that I have experienced in my roughly 2 years as an active participant in these groups is why I stay here. I guess you can say I came for the sabers, stayed for the people, haha. Anyway, my point is I usually stayed out of the "political" side of things, partly because I didn't want to make enemies, and partly because I felt it wasn't my business. And of course I probably don't know a quarter of what has really been going on behind closed doors, but as a pretty substantial contributor to the community, I feel like I have a little ground to stand on when it comes to expressing myself.

From what I can tell, the FX/IRA "disputes" are almost always rooted in differing philosophies and ultimately, needs, regarding this hobby. Being a member of collecting circles, and builder circles, and costumer circles, and just general SW fan circles, I've seen how each group views props differently. Sometimes slightly so, sometimes majorly so. What many people, myself included for a while, are guilty of doing is not considering that some people need different things out of this hobby. For example, collectors are usually after rare items, or lisensed replicas. Builders want the best components, a high level of personal touch, and ultimately the satisfaction of DIY. Costumers want something that looks the part, sure, but is also economical when considering the saber or blaster or what have you is but one box to check off out of 10, 15, or more. General SW fans ALL share the "wow, that's awesome" factor, but it varies from person to person wether they become a builder, collector, or just an appreciative observer. All of this is perfectly awesome. I've noticed, though, that a heck of a lot of disputes aren't caused by singular incidents. Just like in real life, it's rarely one event that makes a dispute between tightly knit groups, its usually events that are perceived as indicative of an underlying problem, or is the most recent in a chain of similar events, that set off these sort of things. I think, from my perspective anyway, there has been some tension between FX/IRA for the reason that, like I said, people who want different things out of the hobby/product will approach it in different, sometimes conflicting, ways. FX has its own unique way of going about things, and so does IRA. Most of the time there is overlap, they really aren't TOO drastically different. Anyway, I think the root of the friction between the two forums is that vocal minorities who feel more loyal to one place or the other drum up these differing practices as affronts to THEIR way of doing things. Again, this is just from an observers perspective, and mostly between members, not MODS, as I rarely get a glimpse into their side of things.

Ultimately, I just don't want things to go sour between these forums, and more importantly, the people behind the keyboards. We have so much to gain from one another, it'd be a shame to see another falling out between community members. Like Amp said, these sort of disputes really do affect the membership, wether it be in a minor or major way. I know I'm glad I was an established member of the community by the time the last falling out happened, and not trying to get into the hobby at that time. It alienates a lot of potentially great new members, which is a shame, and creates tension between older members that shouldn't be there. Anyway, I guess I'm just saying that we all need to recognize that there are different needs, attitudes, methods, and personalities in communities as large as ours. As long as no one is trying to stir the pot, or is clinging to an objectively incorrect viewpoint (like, saying there's no danger in direct driving a red Rebel from a 11.1V pack, or something), then we all need to remember that just because it's not our way, doesn't mean it's the wrong way. Ultimately, we just want to build cool sabers, and get to know cool people. That's the most important thing, and if something gets in the way of that that could be fixed, it'd be a xxx shame.

Sorry for the uber long post. Like I said, I almost always sit out these things, and I just wanted to contribute for once.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: The_Night on August 04, 2013, 12:51:23 AM
The only thing I will say on the topic is that it is things like this that made me get out of sabers as a hobby in the first place. It's sad that we for some reason can't all seem to get along even though we all share a common (and very niche) hobby. If you ask me there are far too few saber enthusiasts for us to continually be firing shots at one another.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: COUNT DOOKU on August 04, 2013, 12:56:01 AM
Posting this here... and on IRA.

I think the main point of this thread has been missed. This thread wasn't to bash another forum and say how awful or terrible it is. The thread wasn't made for that purpose.

This information was posted, as there was faulty and misinformation posted about a product which VV sells. That erroneous information- whether done intentionally or unintentionally- can damage the reputation of a product. As VV relies on sabers for their income, it is fully within their right to correct this info publicly to protect their business.

Now as to the he-said-she-said as to whether or not they are allowed on the IRA, that's none of my business. That is between VV and the IRA Admins. I respect VV for going with the Admins wishes of staying off their forum. And if VV is welcome there, then it seems some simple miscommunication has occurred down the line, which honestly is quite easy over these interwebs of text.

Bottom line is this- bad information was presented in light of absolute fact, rather than personal opinion. Coupled with sarcastic comments about materials which have been the standard since... forever and comparison to sub-par makers which also was inaccurate, I see no problem with the post in an attempt to ensure correct information is presented based on established standards- not personal opinions.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Master Valon on August 04, 2013, 01:13:01 AM
Posting this here... and on IRA.

I think the main point of this thread has been missed. This thread wasn't to bash another forum and say how awful or terrible it is. The thread wasn't made for that purpose.

This information was posted, as there was faulty and misinformation posted about a product which VV sells. That erroneous information- whether done intentionally or unintentionally- can damage the reputation of a product. As VV relies on sabers for their income, it is fully within their right to correct this info publicly to protect their business.

Now as to the he-said-she-said as to whether or not they are allowed on the IRA, that's none of my business. That is between VV and the IRA Admins. I respect VV for going with the Admins wishes of staying off their forum. And if VV is welcome there, then it seems some simple miscommunication has occurred down the line, which honestly is quite easy over these interwebs of text.

Bottom line is this- bad information was presented in light of absolute fact, rather than personal opinion. Coupled with sarcastic comments about materials which have been the standard since... forever and comparison to sub-par makers which also was inaccurate, I see no problem with the post in an attempt to ensure correct information is presented based on established standards- not personal opinions.


If that was really the issue, then I don't think there'd be a 4 page thread about it, with some of the ideas expressed that have been. Like I said, its plain to me that this is about more than DA's post, which honestly, I think should have been handled between VV and DA, if it really was JUST about that one incident. It is obvious there are some undercurrents of tension between FX/IRA, and I think it really should be talked about more earnestly, like Amp has done. Your point about Alan and Deanna being within their rights to make this post because they make their living on sabers goes back to my point I brought up about there being some major differences between how people go about this hobby. Obviously VV is great at what they do, some would say one of the best. But this is, like you said a business to them, whereas DA came at it from a hobbyist perspective. If it were truly a "bad for business" type of thing, I don't think VV would have gone public, and I don't think so many people would have been adding all this to the table. I think it'd do everyone a load of good to admit there's been tension between the two forums, and try to work it out honestly. Because no one WANTS this to get worse, that's one thing we can all agree on. So all I'm saying is, is that this back and forth is a little disheartening, and we should keep in mind how different people approach this hobby...well, differently. If you want to get specific, yeah, the jab at VV's heatsink comparing it to the other place's heatsink is pretty much flat out wrong. Also, the sarcasm was a bit uncalled for, in DA's post. BUT, I also think the inference here that the fact that such a post still stands on IRA is evidence that there's some bigger, forum-wide bad blood between IRA and FX is as equally uncalled for. I think people get a little too mired in their own view on things, and it benefits everyone to step into the other sides' shoes for a bit.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Amptrooper on August 04, 2013, 01:20:13 AM
In luminaria's earlier posts in thread, they stated, not 1, but 2 admin stated that they would not be allowed registering on the IRA.
A message to correct some slanderous misanformation (http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?topic=40890.msg545879#msg545879)

As the owner of the IRA, was this an earlier policy? I have no reason to doubt lumi, but it contradicts the first statement in your post. Admin being the creators of policy, with mods being enforcers of said policy.

Should Lumi provide names of said admin, what then?

I think that if she was told that by 2 of our Admins that she should come to me and ask about it. More then that, I think that this kind of politics needs to not be public. If there is a problem with me, talk to me, if there are people saying things like "you are not allowed to be on the IRA" Then she should come to me. Do you want me to post the email where I invite Vaders Vault? I wouldn't do it publicly because it does not need to be and people don't want that kind of stuff. They are here to enjoy the community and sabers not to listen to Saber Builders political issues.
This kind of stuff that deals with Saber smiths and Forum admins or owners is not stuff that the general public wants to see and hear or needs to. Listen, VADERS VAULT and EVERYONE here and at JSSDC and TCSS are FULLY welcome to join the IRA. Matter a fact, PLEASE DO! Maybe then some of this junk can come to end and y'all see that we don't have some sort of messed up agenda or anything. Join up at the IRA. We would love to have you. And i do not mean that in a condescending manner. I really mean it!
I would love for the forums and members there of to get along. This is all nonsense and half the time I can't believe what is going on or why it is going on! Again, please come over and see what we are a about by being a part of the whole community. It may put an end to all this. I mean, what more can I say or offer. I have been offering from day one and getting nowhere. Its like I loose for trying and when I stop trying and just focus on the forum, I still loose! How do you go up against that? Its all very frustrating.
I don't now what to do.

I DID said that i told VV to stay away and leave us alone. I meant it like that too. They had a problem with a rule that I made about sound fonts and were relentless about it so that is how I responded after about 4 or 5 emails back and forth. That was gosh, many months ago. I don't know who would have told them they "can't" join. If they did, they were wrong to do so as we have no ban on Vaders Vault or anyone else and never have. If they want to be a part of it then they are welcome but if they want to tear us down and so on then I think they should stay away and leave us alone and focus on their own stuff.
Why not put us to the test! That is all I can offer. What better then that then to give it a try.
But try with the heart of really wanting to be a part not with a heart of trying to find flaw with everything in order to point a finger.
Why don't people want to make this IRA/FX thing work? I bet you would be surprised about all the good stuff that is said about FX and the Saber Builders etc..
 
I have made the offer, consider it the second time I am passing the olive branch. There is no reason to continue this except to either come together to bridge the differences of the two forums or break the branch and keep going as it has been for nearly 4 years.

As to why there is talk of this nature and of my last post is because we are being accused of being a forum that screens its members and does not allow certain people and then later it is said that their maybe some sort of "spinning" by the IRA Team because of what DA said. What would have happened if VV would have sent a nice message to DA letting him know that they would like to show/explain to him why this or that is used and so forth? Good chance that they would have come to some sort of agreement about the post. DA is not an unreasonable guy from what I has seen of his posts. Good chance that there would be no public drama. No accusations or any of it and things would have gone on smoothly and without incident. Why would that be a bad thing? It's beeter then this I would think. I always think it is best when you can go right to the source and get things worked out.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Forgetful Jedi Knight on August 04, 2013, 01:27:10 AM
Amp, Jango brings up a good point. As Luminara has told me the identity of the other Admin, the identity of that person didn't surprise me at all. I know she has no reason to be untruthful about it.

I am one (of many) members of FX and JSSDC who is also a member of the IRA. I completely agree with your statement that what one person (or a couple) thinks on a forum isn't the mindset of everyone on entire forum. I have dealt with a few people who are currently part of your consortium and have great experiences with them. I don't post much there, because I don't really have a need to, as I build my own stuff, I don't sell, and I don't particularly look to buy things.

With that said, there are one or two individuals there who appear to have agendas and who don't have issues with taking swipes at certain individuals on FX. Personally, I have observed a couple of individuals (including one of your Mods) whose "attitude" I personally don't care for. Do I hold that against you, or your forum? Of course not. But, the "review" that started this little skirmish, could work both ways if people really wanted to be petty. And I can practically guarantee that were the roles reversed, some in the IRA camp wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a "bad review" though it were completely honest and totally justified.

Like you, I don't particularly like to see all this bickering, but as long as certain people feel the need to "stir the pot", others will feel the need to respond.

In my opinion, "burying the hatchet" will never completely happen, because individual and professional animus (and to a degree, jealousy) will prevent it to an extent. I could go on, but some people, (in both camps)  might would not like to hear what I would say. There is an old saying that says "The truth hurts", and it would hurt some far more than it would others.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: JANGO FETT on August 04, 2013, 01:33:37 AM
This arouse from a political issue. VV was told by 2 admin, not to join the IRA. Their product was frankly maligned by an IRA member publicly, incorrectly. They could not defend themselves on the IRA, per the 2 admin advised embargo.

thus the posting here.
These 2 admin represent you normally, correct? Why would VV question a policy that has been confirmed, not once, but twice?
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: LUMINARA UNDULI on August 04, 2013, 01:40:05 AM
Amp you obviously have forgotten that you yourself told me to stay off your forum.  As a result, I do not have an account there. Luke told me the same before he left here the last time.  I can provide our staff here with the email from you when I get home from our trip.  It is true that long ago you had extended an invitation, but that was retracted.  If your mindset has changed I am happy to discuss with you.  As I believe I told you last time, I am always happy to talk with you :).

As far as an individual having an opinion, no one is saying that individual does not have a right to an opinion.  I am the first to defend that right.  The objection to the post in question was using incorrect technical information as ammunition to slander us and our products.  As has been pointed out, that is attacking our livelihood and we have the right to correct the misinformation. There is a difference between an opinion and using false information to make someone look bad.

Also, this is a competing smith making these accusations.  Normally, if a smith has an issue with another smith's work, it is handled privately.  It is in poor taste to air things on the forums.  Everyone has different ways of doing things and sometimes one person may not be experienced enough to recognize why something was done a certain way or just may have a different idea of how something should be done.  Not only that, it is sometimes hard for people to be objective with their competitors.  And, even if someone is able to be completely objective, their motives will be suspect.

You might notice you rarely see a smith publicly bashing someone elses' work here.  It is unprofessional and in bad taste.

Regarding FX vs. IRA, I have stated more than once in this thread that there was no intent for Starkiller's post to be about forum vs. forum.  His post was, as stated repeatedly, to refute the misinformation being spread by one member of your forum and a few others who were fanning the flames.  Unfortunately, we could not go over there to rebut said post because you had specifically told me we were not welcome there.

I think everyone would be much happier if there was no tension between forums and we would all love it if everyone would bury the hatchet and just find a way to peacefully coexist and enjoy lightsabers with no drama.   In order for that to happen, people need to stop attacking, making insinuations, and false allegations and keep their own side of the street clean.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Aus_Jedi_Killer on August 04, 2013, 02:13:25 AM
(https://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg534.imageshack.us%2Fimg534%2F2029%2Fdehs.jpg&hash=23e62825e5d105d50fc589db1d34c882d5531756) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/534/dehs.jpg/)

Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: JANGO FETT on August 04, 2013, 02:25:12 AM
Well after reading the post above yours, I fingered out what the cake from the IRA admin policy was made from.

(https://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi20.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb219%2FNailbunny375%2F101708.jpg&hash=f557b2f9d3d2c556ed72c524ba6cc964b7fee3f2) (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b219/Nailbunny375/101708.jpg)

I'll pass.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Obi-Shane on August 04, 2013, 02:32:13 AM
Lots of slander going on from both sides now. Nice.

Where's all this going btw?
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misanformation
Post by: Vercify on August 04, 2013, 02:58:57 AM

Again, this is really about an individual spreading incorrect technical information in an attempt to slander our product, not about forum vs. forum.  I have no problem with someone objectively posting an opinion or doing a fair and honest review.  The post in question at that other forum was not such a post ;).

As Sollus just pointed out, this thread has exploded and gone from correcting misinformation to forum v. forum drama. I'm new around here, and am not well versed on the tension between IRA and FX. I browse both, frankly, and have no problem with either of them. I think we all need to look back at what lumi said in like the 5th post... It's not about the politics, it's about the right and need to stand up for oneself in a situation like this.

There was a "slanderous", incorrect, mean and hurtful post made about VV. That cannot be refuted. It has since been said by Amp that VV was previously told to stay away from IRA, but there is confusion as to whether or not that is still the wishes of admins over there, which is why VV posted over here. Ok, whatever. It doesn't matter if VV was welcome or not at IRA, as VV has every right to post this here regardless of if they could have posted on IRA as well. They were publicly slandered, they should be able to publicly defend themselves here, there or anywhere.

If you look back through the thread you can see it degenerate from VV defending themselves to everyone fighting amongst themselves. This post should really only continue for as long as it takes to correct the misinformation and make sure whoever was responsible understands that they are at fault. This post has blown up enough, and needs to either get back to its roots or disappear entirely.

What happens from here is up in the air, I suppose. Again, being new, I would hate for stuff to be so angry and segregated when it has seemed to be so friendly and accommodating in the past. I just come here and to IRA to learn and experience the incredible creativity this hobby has to offer. I can only hope everyone can remember that at the end of the day, the hobby is whats important and the hobby what truly holds this community together.



Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: JANGO FETT on August 04, 2013, 03:01:40 AM
I guess it was unprofessional for me to imply that the IRA admin policy was horsecrap after Luminaria confirmed that Amptrooper and Luke Skywalker(not the one here) told VV to stay off the IRA.

I just find it incredibly hypocritical.

Then I note on the IRA, an announcement that FX is altering feedback to be more positive.
This is not so. I fought like xxx against this personally at great cost to get a rouge mod removed from doing so back in 2010.
If a mod has done this since then, report the post, PM me, email me, whatever, and I'll investigate it and do my best to get the original text restored.


Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Obi-Shane on August 04, 2013, 03:12:20 AM
I guess it was unprofessional for me to imply that the IRA admin policy was horsecrap after Luminaria confirmed that Amptrooper and Luke Skywalker(not the one here) told VV to stay off the IRA.

I just find it incredibly hypocritical.

Then I note on the IRA, an announcement that FX is altering feedback to be more positive.
This is not so. I fought like xxx against this personally at great cost to get a rouge mod removed from doing so back in 2010.
If a mod has done this since then, report the post, PM me, email me, whatever, and I'll investigate it and do my best to get the original text restored.

I know what instance you are referring to and think you did the right thing to get said person's mod status removed. Let's say DarthAlice was incredibly immature for slandering VV, you slandering the whole mod community at IRA wasn't exactly graceful and mature.

I think what the other persons comment about deleted forum posts here are the multiple pages of horrible feedback for Goodman that just disappeared. Leaving him with nothing but a five star feedback rating. That sounds a lot like the Stuff that went on with the previous said Mod on FX that was deleting and modifying his own feebback thread that you got removed, no?
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Link on August 04, 2013, 06:03:55 AM
Posted @ FX & IRA ( Since I'm a member at both )

I wasn't going to post on this... probly shouldn't either but Ill take a shot. ( Since I .. LOVE... THE community as a whole )

@ Darth Alice -  You compared a Vader's Vault saber to an US Saber in a way that subliminally slandered there work. Opinion or not.. Not cool.  OBVIOUSLY.. Everyone has a right to there opinion. But there are more tactful ways to go about it too.

@ Alan - You posted an immediate response to this to defend your product... Well within your right.  But you did it publically.... You and Deanna were told in the past to stay away from IRA.... Ok.. got it.... Could you have possibly contacted another IRA Forum member to relay the message ?? So as to avoid publicizing the disagreement ?? Yes you could have.  But you let your emotions get in the way instead of thinking clearly.

These to acts resulted in a UN-intentional Flame war between two GREAT forums regardless of any other political crap.  There were things that BOTH parties could have done to avoid this.

As to the rest of this CRAP that is going on between these two forums.  C'mon people... seriously ?  This is the best we can do ?  The last time I checked.. Everyone at FX, IRA, RL, TCSS and all the other SW Communities ARE the backbone of this hobby !!!  WE are the people who keep star wars alive !  What in the frozen over heck are we doing ? 

WE ARE BETTER THAN THIS MY FELLOW MEMBERS !!!!! 

C'mon everyone !!!!!  For Sabers sake ! Lets get it together !!   

@ YODA - Sir... Your 2 cents would be much appreciated. You are the founder of FX and your input is needed. If nothing more than to say ( in a fatherly way )  " Hey you two !  Cut it out or no desert for dinner ! "  lol     

Thanks for reading my post if you did. I put my heart into this because this hobby and its community has given me something irreplaceable in my life. That may sound like a big fat pile of fluff but its true. I found this hobby when an Ex of mine and I were on the rocks. Well the rocks fell through.... This hobby helped me keep it together during that time by keeping my mind occupied. I have loved it ever since and I thank you all very much !!!!!   :)   

Very Respectfully     AME2 (AW) USN          a.k.a.   Link !   

 

 
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Binks on August 04, 2013, 06:55:34 AM
I hardly ever post on here and this whole thread has me pondering.
I know that when the first post was made, it was made not as an accusation from Starkiller, but to defend something he made and is proud of.
I am sure that was not an us vs. them kind of statement. Starkiller wanted people in general to know how the standards of building sabers has and continues to evolve.

Link you mentioned asking someone else to post on their behalf. It doesn't work that way. If you can't defend yourself in one way, you will try to defend yourself in every possible way.

If one if my products was attacked and I wasn't able to defend myself; I wouldn't send someone to defend my product. I have first hand knowledge of my product.

Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: LUMINARA UNDULI on August 04, 2013, 07:12:04 AM
I guess it was unprofessional for me to imply that the IRA admin policy was horsecrap after Luminaria confirmed that Amptrooper and Luke Skywalker(not the one here) told VV to stay off the IRA.

I just find it incredibly hypocritical.

Then I note on the IRA, an announcement that FX is altering feedback to be more positive.
This is not so. I fought like xxx against this personally at great cost to get a rouge mod removed from doing so back in 2010.
If a mod has done this since then, report the post, PM me, email me, whatever, and I'll investigate it and do my best to get the original text restored.

I know what instance you are referring to and think you did the right thing to get said person's mod status removed. Let's say DarthAlice was incredibly immature for slandering VV, you slandering the whole mod community at IRA wasn't exactly graceful and mature.

I think what the other persons comment about deleted forum posts here are the multiple pages of horrible feedback for Goodman that just disappeared. Leaving him with nothing but a five star feedback rating. That sounds a lot like the Stuff that went on with the previous said Mod on FX that was deleting and modifying his own feebback thread that you got removed, no?

You know I saw this over at the IRA and wondered, what the heck are they talking a about?  Then I realized that folks probably do not realize that there were different threads going on for Goodman.  As far as I can tell, Goodman's feedback thread was never altered or removed.  I am not an ADMIN so cannot 100% confirm this but based on what I found searching this morning, I believe that to be so.  His feedback thread is still up and visible.

You may try searching around because the negative thread was a separate thread.  It is also possible that it is no longer viewable by members because they were part of a migration that happens with inactive manufacturers.  I would need to check with an ADMIN to know if those are still in an area where members can see or not. 

Either way, there was never any shenanigans or deliberate attempt to modify his feedback to the best of my knowledge. 



Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: LUMINARA UNDULI on August 04, 2013, 08:10:03 AM
Guess I missed this.


I wouldn't do it publicly because it does not need to be and people don't want that kind of stuff. They are here to enjoy the community and sabers not to listen to Saber Builders political issues.


I wholeheartedly agree.


I DID said that i told VV to stay away and leave us alone. I meant it like that too. They had a problem with a rule that I made about sound fonts and were relentless about it so that is how I responded after about 4 or 5 emails back and forth. That was gosh, many months ago. I don't know who would have told them they "can't" join. If they did, they were wrong to do so as we have no ban on Vaders Vault or anyone else and never have. If they want to be a part of it then they are welcome but if they want to tear us down and so on then I think they should stay away and leave us alone and focus on their own stuff.

And yet here you are bringing up politics and not in the way it went at all.  Quote two seems contradictory to quote one :-\.

For the record, this is absolutely not how it went.  It was not a "rule" there was a problem with.  Your forum has every right to make its own rules.  In fact, that situation was very similar to this one.  You may want to revisit that particular chain of events.  I suggest you go back and reread.  No reason to clutter this thread with that mess.

I can dig up many emails and PMs where I have told you point blank that Vader's Vault has no wish to tear the IRA down or anyone down for that matter.  I have also told you this via phone and via Skype.  Not sure what more I can do :'(. Yet, even so, there is always this paranoia about VV, JSSDC or FX.  I know where it comes from, but let me state (again) for the record, no one even gives the IRA a thought here except when issues like this happen.  No offense but we have more important things to worry about, than what is going on at another forum which really should just be talking about glowy flashlights, not a bunch of silly drama. 

Vader's Vault has always been a contributing part of the lightsaber community and do our best to help folks wherever we can.  Many of our friends are a part of the IRA. 

This thread AGAIN was about a post by one of your members, and some subsequent fan flaming including posts by one of your MODs encouraging it.  It had nothing to do with the IRA as a whole.  You and I have discussed this in the past.  There do seem to be a handful of people that seem to like "stirring the pot".  It tends to always be those same folks most of the time. 

I keep stating that it was not Starkiller's intent to make this an us/them thing (there should be no us/them).  He posted simply to defend our products, our character, and stop the spread of misinformation.  Yet YOU guys keep coming in with the us/them thing.  I will say I am surprised that the post in question was allowed to stand without modification considering the slanderous comments that were made.  I am all for freedom of speech and will defend anyone's right to an opinion, but slander and flaming are other things entirely.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Forgetful Jedi Knight on August 04, 2013, 08:45:16 AM
I guess it was unprofessional for me to imply that the IRA admin policy was horsecrap after Luminaria confirmed that Amptrooper and Luke Skywalker(not the one here) told VV to stay off the IRA.

I just find it incredibly hypocritical.

Then I note on the IRA, an announcement that FX is altering feedback to be more positive.
This is not so. I fought like xxx against this personally at great cost to get a rouge mod removed from doing so back in 2010.
If a mod has done this since then, report the post, PM me, email me, whatever, and I'll investigate it and do my best to get the original text restored.

I know what instance you are referring to and think you did the right thing to get said person's mod status removed. Let's say DarthAlice was incredibly immature for slandering VV, you slandering the whole mod community at IRA wasn't exactly graceful and mature.

I think what the other persons comment about deleted forum posts here are the multiple pages of horrible feedback for Goodman that just disappeared. Leaving him with nothing but a five star feedback rating. That sounds a lot like the Stuff that went on with the previous said Mod on FX that was deleting and modifying his own feebback thread that you got removed, no?

You know I saw this over at the IRA and wondered, what the heck are they talking a about?  Then I realized that folks probably do not realize that there were different threads going on for Goodman.  As far as I can tell, Goodman's feedback thread was never altered or removed.  I am not an ADMIN so cannot 100% confirm this but based on what I found searching this morning, I believe that to be so.  His feedback thread is still up and visible.

You may try searching around because the negative thread was a separate thread.  It is also possible that it is no longer viewable by members because they were part of a migration that happens with inactive manufacturers.  I would need to check with an ADMIN to know if those are still in an area where members can see or not. 

Either way, there was never any shenanigans or deliberate attempt to modify his feedback to the best of my knowledge.

I was able to find the negative feedback thread easily enough. It's all still there.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: JANGO FETT on August 04, 2013, 08:48:52 AM
re: Goodman's Feedback
main public thread.
Goodman (http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?board=133.0)
all the other threads
Goodman (http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?board=133.0)

I do not see any posts in the sarlacc. When he was removed from the MC to inactive area, the admins created the inactive area, and I moved his MC threads there myself.
His main feedback thread was never moved.

@Obi-Shane
I called out two admin on IRA, and posted my opinion on why Darth Alice was wrong, with references.  I did not slander or libel anyone at IRA.
libel legal definition of libel. libel synonyms by the Free Online Law (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/libel)
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: LUMINARA UNDULI on August 04, 2013, 09:01:27 AM
Good to know FJK.  I think the confusion is that people think it was a feedback thread when it was actually a separate thread discussing Goodman's disappearance at the time.

I would like to refute another "rumor" going around.  Like JANGO mentioned earlier, there were those of us who worked long and hard to get someone removed who was taking liberties with posts and threads.  That was years ago now.  As I believe I mentioned someplace earlier in this thread, the actions of said individual were done against the wishes of the Council.  We do not run around deleting posts and we do our best to allow freedom of speech.  However if someone is posting slanderous comments, breaking the rules here, or deliberately creating a flame war you might find the thread or post modified or even removed.  It is rare, but we do try to keep this a positive and friendly place for all to enjoy. 

While I certainly do not know the inner workings of the ADMIN at the IRA from what I have seen, their actions are very similar.  I have seen posts and whole threads modded there for similar reasons.  This is true of any public forum I am or have been a member of.  So to try to make some distinction is silly.  If the thread in question that started this was here on FX and was regarding an IRA member (or anyone here, there, or on another forum even), I would have personally gone in and MODDED certain comments and am not ashamed of that in the least. They were unkind, slanderous and a personal attack.  I would have sent an explanation to the poster and explained why they were MODDED and certainly would be happy to have a discussion with the person about it.  That is in accordance with our rules.   Flame wars, lies, and slander have no place on these forums and can lead to bad feeling, division and, in some cases even legal issues.  No one wants any of that garbage so why not just all be cognizant of what we post and try to have integrity when we talk about one another?

Let me be perfectly clear so we do not have, yet, another misunderstanding.  I am talking about lies and slander.  Not someone's opinion, or someone's right to speak their mind.  We do not mod posts just to make ourselves or other members look better (or worse for that matter).  We are all pretty much on the same page that we want folks to be free to speak their mind and have honest and open discussion.  Exceptions are when it falls into slander or other legal issues or is against our rules.  If anyone has a question about that, feel free to PM myself or any staff member.

EDIT: Jango posted links above so hopefully that will put the Goodman Feedback gossip to rest.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: nartules on August 04, 2013, 12:51:50 PM
I dont know how yet but for some reason I just know that Lucien broke the forums but it was all Nartules fault...Hugo probably had something to do with it as well.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Jedi Yar Nala on August 04, 2013, 01:21:43 PM
Ok...

I'll chime in.

Over the weekend, I've been doing family things and spending time doing family obligations. I get the spare second to do some quick reads of the things going on over the forums... and, of course, I've had the opportunity to see the events that have transpired over the last 48 hours.

Let me just address a few things...

First off... I am one of the three admin on the IRA. Just so that everyone is clear... I have never banned anyone from coming over to there to join.

If people so choose to join, they are welcome to do so. None are barred from doing so except (as Amptrooper said... spammers...). :P

As far as the post at hand... this was a member's findings on something they were working on, and, as such... they voiced their own opinion of what they found. In the thread being discussed, nothing is preventing anyone from signing in over there and posting their reply to it. This could mean doing so in a fashion in explaining the findings of that person....  whether they disagree or agree with the findings... a healthy discussion is never discouraged.

Amptrooper has offered the open invitation for joining the IRA to VV, or anyone else, without fear of not being allowed in.

I, likewise, offer the same invitation, and have the power to reverse any action over there if someone IS being prohibited from signing in.

People will NOT be prohibited/banned/stopped/locked out from signing up... I can monitor and take action if such action takes place.

The truth is this....

Both forums are great forums.

It's been mentioned plenty of times over here... and over there... that collectively... we ALL want this to stop.

Admin/Mods feel the same way at the IRA, and I am sure that the staff at FX feels the same.

Further bickering/flaming isn't good for the industry/hobby... and I know that ALL of us do not want to be sucked into politics or drama... but instead... focus our attention to the world of SW and props/costumes/blasters.... and of course... lightsabers. :)

If people at the IRA stopped by FX to see what that forum is like... they will find a great forum with great members... informative threads... a great community.

You know... the same thing can be said at the IRA.... You will find great members... informative threads... a great community.

I believe that it helps that there are members that have membership at both forums... and they find themselves being active in both communities.

Taking some time to read stuff over there... often you'll find insightful stuff not found here. Likewise... you'll find great things to read over here at FX, on topics and subjects not being talked over there...

People are welcome to take a look around on both forums and decide for themselves... what they will find is the conclusion I mentioned above... these are both great forums.

So from where I'm coming from... I'd like to encourage everyone to re-focus on just enjoying this hobby of ours.

We all love Star Wars... and we all love the "fictional" weapons created for this franchise...

Let's go back to focusing on enjoying that... rather spend the time blasting on each other's forums.

Ok... back to the family....  ;D









Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Sunrider on August 04, 2013, 01:38:41 PM
 The more we concentrate on controlling 'slander', which often boils down to opinion, and protecting every aspect of out appearance, even to the point of legal talk. The less freedom we have to state our opinions and share information as a community.  This only serves to isolate ourselves to our little corners and we perpetuate these little divisions in the community. When these issues pop up they need to be confronted directly. Only as a last resort should there be threads on all the forums about someones post. When these objections come up as others have said it should be handled as privately as possible. If it were me I would have tried to post a response even if admin said to stay away. Then you could say "I tried to defend myself in that thread but could not". Also I would contact an admin and let them know before making more posts. But that's only my opinion. :)
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: jedicri on August 04, 2013, 02:01:18 PM
I for one would have preferred that this whole debacle to have been handled privately through PMs and whatnot.  Since DA is a member here, I think a more appropriate response should have been to PM him here at fx since Alan and Deanna believed that they were not welcome at IRA and thus could not directly address the issue there.   

Regardless of what's already been posted, and I say this as a member of both forums, I sincerely hope that all parties involved move forward to do whatever is necessary to resolve whatever "conflict" is perceived so we all can return to our regularly scheduled program of discussing sabers.

My 2 cents...
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Clark Kent on August 04, 2013, 02:11:16 PM
anyone have a CEX for a CF 6 they would like to sell?

shoot me a PM.   :P
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Knight50 on August 04, 2013, 02:17:17 PM
hey Clark

I think you're in the wrong forum part  ;)
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: jedicri on August 04, 2013, 02:40:29 PM
anyone have a CEX for a CF 6 they would like to sell?

shoot me a PM.   :P

Nice one Cal, nice one --- pretty slick too!  ;)
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: LUMINARA UNDULI on August 04, 2013, 02:57:13 PM
Briefly as on phone in desert. Sunrider I respectfully disagree.  This was not simply someone's opinion.  The comments made were slanderous.  It was a very public post.  It needed to be refuted publicly.  It was also in poor taste.  We have other people's work cross our desk regularly.  Much of the work that crosses our desk is not up to our standards, with some being really bad. You do not see us ripping them apart here on FX.  That would be unprofessional and inappropriate. 
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Sunrider on August 04, 2013, 03:31:47 PM
So he said he thought the copper cap was poor quality and it reminded him of something else he saw he thought was done poorly. This IS a matter of opinion. So a negative opinion can be slanderous. Are we not allowed to express a negative opinion? Is someone going to claim slander? These thoughts should open for discussion or confrontation that is the way to refute them.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: LUMINARA UNDULI on August 04, 2013, 03:42:36 PM
Sunrider you are entitled to your opinion. I believe you are not reading that post objectively.  That is my opinion. 

Facts are that the heatsink comparison was petty and slanderous.  The comparison of a chrome plated sink nut to a copper solution as being of similar quality is misrepresentation.  I'll stop there as it is beating a dead horse.

If you can't see it throughout his entire post, well I don't know what to tell you.  You are entitled to your own opinion.

Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Redthumbscrew on August 04, 2013, 04:02:22 PM
This is reminding me of when I was a kid and my parents used to fight all the time and some how I new it was all my fault.
I'm gonna go hangout in the bathroom, its safe there.


P.s @Carke Kent    PM sent
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Sunrider on August 04, 2013, 04:14:59 PM
 As you said the misrepresentation was obvious. Anyone would know that a copper cap is better than a nut. So why the need to defend yourself. People sometimes try to be funny in their posts. He could simply be guilty of this. By taking these countermeasures we lose our freedom to post our thoughts and be honest. That is one of the main purposes of the forums. When you stand out, and you are a big dog, people will take shots at your work. Even I have taken shots from others about my overcomplicated designs that don't make sense but who cares, people will say what they will. There is no way to control that. It must be confronted directly if you feel the need. That is their opinion and they are entitled to it even if you don't like it.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: LUMINARA UNDULI on August 04, 2013, 04:54:53 PM
Ah now I see your point but again do not agree  ;D. 

You know that but actually many people do not. You forget because you are extremely saavy that you are not the norm. 

These forums are not made up of only smiths and educated hobbyists. They are a mix of folks that are collectors, combat enthusiasts, etc. as well as various builders. People come to the forums to be educated by the experts.  The poster is representing himself as a smith which to someone who is starting out or not versed in the specifics of the hardware and electronics we use, makes him an authority.  From their point of view what he said must be true because he is the expert.

That is how misinformation is spread.  What he said was not only hurtful but harmful to our business and reputation.  In addition it was utter fabrication and malarkay.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Darth Smorgis on August 04, 2013, 05:14:06 PM
*bangs head into wall*

Unfortunately this issue is obviously not going to be resolved.  Some people are just not capable of seeing things from the others point of view until the tables are turned around on them.  Everyone here is just as Lumi said "beating a dead horse" at this point.  I have heard enough talk about forum vs. forum when the original post had nothing to do with that topic in the first place.  Everyone has made their stance on this issue pretty clear and I don't see anyones opinion about to change any time soon.  Unfortunately there will never be true peace and harmony in this world despite our hopes.  Especially when peoples ignorant and hurtful "opinions" take priority over mutual respect.  Everyone is so worried about their freedom of speech that no ones thinks about who it will effect.  Some people are just too entitled.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Vercify on August 04, 2013, 05:16:56 PM
Ah now I see your point but again do not agree  ;D. 

You know that but actually many people do not. You forget because you are extremely saavy that you are not the norm. 

These forums are not made up of only smiths and educated hobbyists. They are a mix of folks that are collectors, combat enthusiasts, etc. as well as various builders. People come to the forums to be educated by the experts.  The poster is representing himself as a smith which to someone who is starting out or not versed in the specifics of the hardware and electronics we use, makes him an authority.  From their point of view what he said must be true because he is the expert.

That is how misinformation is spread.  What he said was not only hurtful but harmful to our business and reputation.  In addition it was utter fabrication and malarkay.

As a new guy and outsider I have to agree and give credence to what luminara is saying. I know almost nothing about internals. I know the science behind some of the stuff (ie/ the whole copper v. aluminum issue), but otherwise rely on the opinions, statements, and experiences of more experienced sabersmiths. Unfortunately, this can most certainly color your views of certain people, practices, and techniques. If I had not seen the quality of VV work then I would have had no trouble believing the stuff that DA was saying, because I just didn't know any better. Both Darth Alice and VV are both quality sabersmiths, so who do you believe?

Sunrider keeps harping on opinions. Fine, have a xxx opinion, that doesn't mean you need to be a jerk about your opinion. There is a difference between being rude and trying to make a joke. I'm going to ignore the pur unfairness of judging VV's work on an old, used saber that is out of date. Seriously?? Ugh.

Anyways, as a savvy member of the community you have a lot more influence than you may think on others. For instance, right now VV's feedback thread, amongst others, are being filled with some negative reviews. Again, its hard to differentiate between two experienced groups/people with differing views or someone who got their feelings hurt or had a few bad experiences far in the past and wasn't really thinking about how their statements can affect someone's reputation.

tl;dr: Everyone can have an opinion, yea, but its wrong when people's opinions turn into unfair, unjust statements/posts that can then go on to color other people's views of a company or product.

This is never going to get resolved. Its going to give me a laugh when this all disappears in a few days and everything gets back to normal.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: jedicri on August 04, 2013, 06:16:28 PM
Okay, again, regardless of what was posted earlier, we've had Amptrooper and JYN post a response and have in as many words, offered an olive branch of peace.  Has anyone involved on this side of the forum responded to this?

With all due respect to the posters that have posted above, your posts have done nothing to advance any resolution to this still ongoing issue --- all these are just commentaries and opinions and no action (that I know of at this point in time).

I echo Darth Smorgis' frustration.....
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Master Jedye on August 04, 2013, 06:23:06 PM
Like Jay said, if you want to see an internal mess, open up ANY of our early sabers...any of us.  I'm pretty sure one or two of our early Gemini Concepts sabers even had some electrical tape in them.    :-[

Yes, it sounds like DA was just "stating his opinion" which he is entitled too.
But it certainly looks like there was a hurtful agenda with his post. 

And to Deanna's point, misinformation is a heck a thing.  It could be and expensive mistake and one that would kill the love of this hobby for someone new. 

That being said...for all you that are saying "this isn't helping"... Yes it is.  Dialog...any dialog is good. 
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: jedicri on August 04, 2013, 06:30:47 PM
Like Jay said, if you want to see an internal mess, open up ANY of our early sabers...any of us.  I'm pretty sure one or two of our early Gemini Concepts sabers even had some electrical tape in them.    :-[

Yes, it sounds like DA was just "stating his opinion" which he is entitled too.
But it certainly looks like there was a hurtful agenda with his post. 

And to Deanna's point, misinformation is a heck a thing.  It could be and expensive mistake and one that would kill the love of this hobby for someone new. 

That being said...for all you that are saying "this isn't helping"... Yes it is.  Dialog...any dialog is good.

Yes, dialog is good, but action speaks louder than words and right now, I see none of it and I hope to see some to resolve this issue.  Dialog means nothing if there is no resolve to follow up or act upon it.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Master Jedye on August 04, 2013, 06:37:08 PM
Like Jay said, if you want to see an internal mess, open up ANY of our early sabers...any of us.  I'm pretty sure one or two of our early Gemini Concepts sabers even had some electrical tape in them.    :-[

Yes, it sounds like DA was just "stating his opinion" which he is entitled too.
But it certainly looks like there was a hurtful agenda with his post. 

And to Deanna's point, misinformation is a heck a thing.  It could be and expensive mistake and one that would kill the love of this hobby for someone new. 

That being said...for all you that are saying "this isn't helping"... Yes it is.  Dialog...any dialog is good.

Yes, dialog is good, but action speaks louder than words and right now, I see none of it and I hope to see some to resolve this issue.  Dialog means nothing if there is no resolve to follow up or act upon it.

Patience, Young One.
This topic just opened.  What did you expect?  Amp to come over here and bestow Admin powers to VV and for the IRA's membership to quadruple in a matter of hours?  Perhaps for both forums to do some sort of weird Voltron thing...merging and becoming the most powerful forum in the Universe?

Let the dialog do its thing and THEN there will be action.  But conversations need to be had.  Let them happen naturally (and slowly if need be).   ;)
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: jedicri on August 04, 2013, 06:54:40 PM
Like Jay said, if you want to see an internal mess, open up ANY of our early sabers...any of us.  I'm pretty sure one or two of our early Gemini Concepts sabers even had some electrical tape in them.    :-[

Yes, it sounds like DA was just "stating his opinion" which he is entitled too.
But it certainly looks like there was a hurtful agenda with his post. 

And to Deanna's point, misinformation is a heck a thing.  It could be and expensive mistake and one that would kill the love of this hobby for someone new. 

That being said...for all you that are saying "this isn't helping"... Yes it is.  Dialog...any dialog is good.

Yes, dialog is good, but action speaks louder than words and right now, I see none of it and I hope to see some to resolve this issue.  Dialog means nothing if there is no resolve to follow up or act upon it.

Patience, Young One.
This topic just opened.  What did you expect?  Amp to come over here and bestow Admin powers to VV and for the IRA's membership to quadruple in a matter of hours?  Perhaps for both forums to do some sort of weird Voltron thing...merging and becoming the most powerful forum in the Universe?

Let the dialog do its thing and THEN there will be action.  But conversations need to be had.  Let them happen naturally (and slowly if need be).   ;)

Well, on that note, I shall wait and see --- and here's hopin'!
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Vercify on August 04, 2013, 07:13:45 PM
Keep in mind that VV is still on vacation, and their posting ability is limited. It's like a bad joke that this happens right in the middle of their time off. I'm sure you will get your action, jedicri, when VV is... well... back in action, lol.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: Sunrider on August 04, 2013, 07:16:30 PM
 Yes, communication is what we need. I have stated my points and they naturally differ from a more business like perspective. I think both should be able to coexist together. We all just have to work more towards it and not isolate ourselves.
Title: Re: A message to correct some slanderous misinformation
Post by: JANGO FETT on August 04, 2013, 07:48:29 PM
Locked at VV request via phone.
May reopen once they return from vacation