FX-Sabers.com
Dueling Society => Dueling with your Lightsaber => Topic started by: Daishi on March 20, 2010, 01:24:27 PM
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I made a blog for this so here is a link http://lightsaber-dueling.blogspot.com/ I decided to host it there just so its more search engine friendly and hopefully get more people into saber dueling ;p
For more Tips check out Jm419's Guide http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?topic=23284.0
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*takes notes* Many thanks. 8)
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A couple of points:
1. Lightsabers are not [or rather, if they were real, would not be] swords. A lot of things sword users think about sword use WOULD NOT APPLY to lightsabers if they were real. For example "strike with the edge, parry with the flat" doesnt apply because lightsaber blades are omnidirectional cutting surfaces that have no flats, lightsabers blades don't have weight like sword blades, lightsabers do have a 'gyroscopic effect' that swords don't, lightsaber blades do 'lock' [rather their electromagnetic containment fields do] which sword blades do not [which is why lightsabers don't have nor need crossguards and swords do], lightsaber blades are essentially 'unbreakable' [rather self-renewing] which swords are not, lightsabers are essentially frictionless cutters in most materials even HARD material which swords are not [meaning that lightsaber cuts are almost always more damaging than 'giving point' many sword authorities incl R.F. Burton consider superior] etc etc etc
So when we see lightsaber use in the movies it should be remembered they are not swords nor because of that are they used like swords.
2. Lightsaber users are not [or rather, if they were real Jedi or Sith as seen in SW fiction, would not be] sword users. Even when they are nominally or near 'human' they are functionally SUPERHUMAN; specifically they are tactically-precognitive telekinetics. This explains WHY lightsabers would exist in the SW Universe in the first place; telekinetics can deflect the mass of matter weapons [or projectiles] so an energy or practically near-massless particle beam blade or projectile is necessary to hit them at all. It also explains why a lot of sword techniques would be useless when both combatants can 'foresee' simple direct strikes...'fancy' extended sequences of complex moves thus complicate the challenge of defending against them in the present while simultaneously foreseeing others in the future when both combatants have tactical precognition. Anyone who has experienced the more limited precognition that exists in our world and knows how CONFUSING seeing "two times at once" is can well imagine how confusing it would be to FIGHT in an advanced future form of such a prescient state, even with advanced perceptual/conceptual integration mental disciplines...Jedi/Sith TACTICS would be designed to exploit that potential for temporal-dynamics confusion of enemies anachronological or bichronological thought processing and thus be very different from human[oid, mostly] sword tactics in significant ways.
So when we see lightsaber USERS in the movies it should be remembered they are not [mere human] sword users nor that they would use sword technique like we would.
Combining these two factors accounts for why lightsaber use in the movies cannot be assumed to follow sword use 'rules' or principles.
IRL "no spins for the win" makes good sense...in SW lightsaber combat where one is trying to confuse a tactically-precognitive TK foe with many complex changes motion/orientation of an easily redirected weightless frictionless 360 degree cutting blade fancy spins may not be so useless eh?
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To follow on what OWK said, your points on "real life" swordsmanship are true.... These are lightsabers, a fictional weapon, that we collect for fun... In most choreographed fights, the spins and flourishes are added for the perceived audiences amusement. They want to see flashy moves with the "glowy sticks" ;D I wouldn't even attempt half the moves in a real fight... The choreographers for the movies/shows understood this... The way I look at it.... If you want to be serious, and have a no nonsense mode to your fight enjoyment, go laarp/boffer....
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@ Onli-won Kanomi
Your right, but again this is for IRL combat at cons or something. But I guess going around challenging people with light up swords sounds kind of silly on paper =p. (not to say I wouldn't do it =p)
Also this section on the forums dose it not say:
"Dueling with your Lightsaber
Want to learn how to duel with your lightsaber? Let the experts train you in the ways of proper (and safe) sword play!"
not that I would call myself an "Expert" but more someone who knows a tip or two that can maybe help someone out?
and its safe-ish since its a plasticy flexible-ish blade that you can hurt people with but won't if used properly
so I'll be fair and reply with the idea of an actual lightsaber and strategy.
IRL "no spins for the win" makes good sense...in SW lightsaber combat where one is trying to confuse a tactically precognitive foe with many complex changes motion/orientation of an easily redirected weightless frictionless 360 degree cutting blade spins may not be so useless eh?
First I want to thank you for acknowledging that this is out of RP.
Tactically trying to confuse a Foe with fancy is not by any means a new concept, and is something combatants should train against and learn to identify. (and eventually becomes a pointless strategy when you face more advanced people) the saber reacts as if hitting a solid object against another saber. Disrupting someone mid spin would still have similar effects as if someone with a stick spins it and someone else hits it with another stick. That and spinning leaves a lot of openings in general, despite being a 360 degree blade. WITH THAT SAID! 360 degree blade would be a nice new advantage, (with the draw back on not being able to support your current blade with your other hand [yay dual wielding]) also as "light weight" as things get the lack of weight can be a disadvantage when spinning... its because of the force of impact and sudden recoil from nowhere after bouncing off another saber, a more weighted weapon would help with the knock back of the weapon if struck properly. Ultimately, I just feel in combat doing a lot of useless and fancy moves are redundant lightsaber or not. Maybe I'm wrong and it would actually not be such a horrible move. but other than a few new swings there is not much of a difference in the way it would be used, sure you can't parry with the flat or use the weight of the weapon against them but you can still parry with the side of whatever your current grip is, and can use the lack of weight against them.
"Eh?" Canadian perhaps? I am too <3~
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I think both viewpoints are interesting on this.
Indeed, if one were to perform a fight, you wouldn't spin you polycarbonate tubed lightsaber around but rather strike and hit, hard.
This is something I love in "Iaido" and the way samurai fight... but I would rather go for the fictional/flashy approach.
This is exactly the difference (in the duels) between the first and second trilogy. Although I still prefer the original trilogy as a whole, the lightsaber fights/choregraphy are more appealing to me in fights like ObiWan vs Anakin or Mace Windu vs Palpatine.
Also it looks more impressive when performed by "real" people. I'm no professional martial artist... but when I duelled versus my best man during my wedding party, I did some spinning and the illusion was perfect as the audience was just watching something that LOOKED impressive. If I had just fought as if we were wielding 2 wooden sticks to really hit each other, it would have been too static
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Interestingly enough Daishi's points are pretty much in the instruction manual to form 3 (soresu) as far as i can tell
I have done some sword work myself and i agree that twirling around can be silly in a real fight, but it does look good on film.
Which is a lot of what star wars dueling is about i think.
Maybe that's why the only form i myself like is form 3. lol.
Hopefully this made sense... just got up fro 4 hours nap and spacy as xxx.
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I almost want to say something...
But I am curious where this topic is going to go first. ;)
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=p just say it, you might take it down yet another possible road ;p
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=p just say it, you might take it down yet another possible road ;p
Hello Daishi, which sword arts have you trained In?
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thought about the "twirls" in the new trilogy... i am remembering something about a lot of those being things the actors (ewan mcgregor? specifically) added in... NOT something that the choreographers planned?
anyone else know/remember something about this? how much twirling was SUPPOSED to be there vs how much was put in by the actors?
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Hello Daishi, which sword arts have you trained In?
I train in Kendo for my earlier years found it to much like a sport than an art. Than later on I did a bit of Iaido for a short but decent period of time, (mostly to learn to focus my breathing and my mind.) and now currently I'm doing Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu the art developed by Musashi Miyamoto, the person who trains us in our group trained directly under Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu's Soke. So I like to think what I've been learning is some what authentic =p and not just some club I randomly joined on the 2nd floor of some building downtown. With that said, I'm not that great or anything but I like to think I'm taking in some knowledge.
why did you quote me on my last post anyways? not that I mind just didn't think it was relevant to the question you asked.
and to Asazm I'm a Starwars fan but other than just watched the movies and thought about how cool a weapon a lightsaber is I don't know much about little facts like that.
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Very nice, and as for the quote... I simply hit the quote button rather than reply. :)
Oh, and where are my manners... Welcome to the boards!
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Hello Daishi, welcome to the forums by the way! ;D
FYI, we often use the quote button when replying so folks will know which post we are answering and sometimes it becomes habitual to quote the post we last read :)
Hope you are enjoying it here at FX-SABERS and thank you for your participation so far :D Look forward to having you around :)
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Very interesting read, well done.
Welcome to FX, Im sure you'll fit right in.
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Thank you Chewbacca and Luminari, good to be here =D
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Sorry I forgot but yes Welcome aboard!
I'm glad that you got that I was speaking from an 'in universe' perspective there.
We saberfans are a diverse group and we use our prop/replica/custom 'lightsabers' in diverse ways. Some build or buy replica 'show' sabers for display...those can get very fancy with internal crystal chassis of great sophistication like Yodas masterpieces that are so beautiful and expensive pieces of Art that their proud owners probably wouldnt want to 'bang them around' dueling. Other folks may enjoy spinning and choreographed 'dueling' with their 'prop' sabers as its own form of performance art...some incorporate that into live performance as in Novastars famous "Balance Of Power" stage shows. Some may make 'fan films' where attention to the 'canon' FICTION of SW saber techniques matters more. Other folks may be Martial Arts Masters like Caine Drathul who train with sabers as 'martial arts weapons' where the fictional canonicity matters less. Then there are the 'clubs' like NY Jedi and "trooping". AFAIK no one has yet used our kind of saber as a REAL [combative] defensive or offensive weapon though I suppose if someone tried to mug me on a dark street a thickwall dueling 'lightsaber' could be more useful than a feather duster eh? Even a thickwall lightsaber 'blade' isnt quite as strong as a Monadnock solid polycarbonate police baton but it might do similarly in a pinch? Certainly I wouldn't want to be hit in the noggin with one 'with intent'. LOL
No one is 'right' or 'wrong'...we just have our "certain points of view" reflecting our own diverse PURPOSES for which we build/buy our 'lightsabers'.
edit: it just occurred to me maybe in the future someone [Caine are you listening?] will develop a competitive 'sport' form of saberplay where people's saber techniques are scored for points in competitive 'duels'...that could be cool imo.
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Indeed, if only I could practice taneshigiri with a thick walled blade. :)
Oh who am I kidding... sabers are awesome! But Shinken.... ;D ;D ;D.
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That's why I stick to chorography not duelling especially with lightsabers.There is seriousness to it such as stance,style,focusbut it is meant to be in fun,and it gives a workout as well.If you want seriousness go with a marital art.
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Saberobics Leia? Why not eh? :D
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This is a good guide, Dashi. While I'm not sure I agree with the "no defense" part - lol, but I can see what you mean, defend so you can attack - this guide is amazingly accurate and indicates a knowledgeable author.
*ahem* Padawans, listen to Master Dashi, you will.
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This "spinning doesn't work" type of discussion has been had here before, and it turned ugly and got locked. Please keep this one as civil as possible.
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This "spinning doesn't work" type of discussion has been had here before, and it turned ugly and got locked. Please keep this one as civil as possible.
I'll try my best <3~ Civilized debates are better than constant/pointless flaming *nods*
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Daishi's philosophy reminds me of Tim Larkin's somewhat. The latter has "no defense" because the main objective is to incapacitate the attacker as soon as possible. :)
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Daishi's philosophy reminds me of Tim Larkin's somewhat. The latter has "no defense" because the main objective is to incapacitate the attacker as soon as possible. :)
a lot of the Japanese sword arts reflect that philosophy, it just kind of grew on me and worked for me over the years =p, of course other people may not like that as much but I've seen people do better for it, and I've seen people end up doing worse because they use it. But more often than not I see people do better... Its kind of like the stance thing, but I feel training to be able to stay on the offensive is a good skill weather you use it or not.
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I think most of the time, in the films, spinning the lightsaber is used for deflecting blaster shots, rather than in a duel, so it does have at least one practical use....in the films anyway. ;)
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I think most of the time, in the films, spinning the lightsaber is used for deflecting blaster shots, rather than in a duel, so it does have at least one practical use....in the films anyway. ;)
actually I think your right good call. also that would be somewhat effective if a lightsaber worked the way I think it dose (I think its kind of like spinning a staff saber [using a staff as an example) the field that restricts the beam trying to trail the blade so it blocks out any gaps and deflects the lazes =D <- speculation I have no idea how these things work)
but that is Ranged vs Melee and well... one day in the back ally when someone pulls a gun on me I'm gonna be like "Aww crap... No force powers... Here take my wallet"
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a lot of the Japanese sword arts reflect that philosophy, it just kind of grew on me and worked for me over the years =p, of course other people may not like that as much but I've seen people do better for it, and I've seen people end up doing worse because they use it. But more often than not I see people do better... Its kind of like the stance thing, but I feel training to be able to stay on the offensive is a good skill weather you use it or not.
Hrm. "The best defense..."
actually I think your right good call. also that would be somewhat effective if a lightsaber worked the way I think it dose (I think its kind of like spinning a staff saber [using a staff as an example) the field that restricts the beam trying to trail the blade so it blocks out any gaps and deflects the lazes =D <- speculation I have no idea how these things work)
but that is Ranged vs Melee and well... one day in the back ally when someone pulls a gun on me I'm gonna be like "Aww crap... No force powers... Here take my wallet"
AHA! More staff advice! *takes notes again*
I attended a short demo on tactical medicine before. The guy who presented said that 90-95% of self-defense is not being there when the crime happens. :)
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The guy who presented said that 90-95% of self-defense is not being there when the crime happens. ;D
And maintaining proper dueling distance!
*jazz hands*
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The guy who presented said that 90-95% of self-defense is not being there when the crime happens. ;D
And maintaining proper dueling distance!
*jazz hands*
Well, yeah, that's his version of dueling "distance." :)
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Best "dueling distance" for DEFENCE is several MILES ;)
Failing that if the attacker has a contact weapon I'll take 50 yards and a shotgun please...
...if he has a shotgun I'll take 200 yards and an assault rifle please...
...if he has an assault rifle I'll take 800 yards and a battle rifle please...
...if he has a battle rifle I'll take 2000 yards and .50 sniper rifle please...
...if he has a .50 sniper rifle I'll take those several miles please...
...and if he has a nuke I'll take a hours warning and a fast helicopter to another city/province please ;-)
lol
But seriously I think I might know what you mean by dueling distance in a melee context and its a fair point.
Did you ever play Soul Calibur III? There's a character in it who is supposed to be a little teenage Vietnamese girl Talim and I found i could easily beat big huge nasties like McFarlane's Spawn because her 2/3-3/4 length stride compared to toher characters was 'wrong' for them to counter with full or half strides and you could get inside their punching/kicking range and 'whale while they flail' lol. Since I always hated Toddo's comics I rather enjoyed whupping big badddd Spewn with a 15 year old girl character lol
IRL in real serious fights in my misfortunate youth I found that similarly if I got my timing ahead of an attacker so they couldnt get the right distance they couldn't hit me very 'hard' always being a part stride or a step 'wrong' for full leverage...still got hit but didnt get hurt as much.
Though I think with a disintegrating beam lightsaber that wouldnt work as well eh?
But maybe 'dueling' with a bokken which is what a thickwall version of our sabers are kinda like it would work to be 'just outside' or 'just inside' their optimal range?
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Did you ever play Soul Calibur III? There's a character in it who is supposed to be a little teenage Vietnamese girl Talim and I found i could easily beat big huge nasties like McFarlane's Spawn because her 2/3-3/4 length stride compared to toher characters was 'wrong' for them to counter with full or half strides and you could get inside their punching/kicking range and 'whale while they flail' lol. Since I always hated Toddo's comics I rather enjoyed whupping big badddd Spewn with a 15 year old girl character lol
Ah, the Distance Judgment Game--a must for any fighting game or duel. :D
Interesting bit about her being Vietnamese, though. The names of her techniques seem to be written in my native language. o.o
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I just looked her up on Wikipedia and I'm wrong...shes not Vietnamese as I thought for some reason it says she is Filipina and her language is Tagalog?
Theres a great pic on the wiki though that shows why she is so deadly against the big bruisers...that guy would be gutted by her elbow blades before he could get back far enough to swing that battleaxe so yeah the "distance judging game" which also factors into the "rhythm" of a fight [though ime real 'fights' are generally too short for much of a rhythm to develop there is a kind of...timing progression...not sure if that is properly described].
Think of Maris Brood in TFU with her dual "guard shoto" [tonfa sabers]...blades significantly shorter than Starkillers "Sith Shien" saber but wasn't she hard to fight the first time through because she was always the 'wrong' distance?
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Yup, sounds like Tagalog. 8)
Not too familiar with Brood and the Expanded Universe, but I see what you're getting at. And you're right: distance judgment is more for video game style-fights. Real fights can be over in seconds, maybe even less.
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The guy who presented said that 90-95% of self-defense is not being there when the crime happens. ;D
And maintaining proper dueling distance!
*jazz hands*
sashay, sashay, Jate, Turn...
Daishi, how many years of swordsmanship experience do you have? Just curious...
And yes, this read is interesting...
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about 8-9 years, and still much to learn =p
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so much sword experience for someone so young. You've been training with weapons since you were 10? That's an amazing amount of dedication from you and your teachers for one so young. I commend you.
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my favorite toy when I was 5 was a toy Luke Skywalker Lightsaber and the Green Ranger's sword flute... since then I adored melee weapons but my folks would not let get or use anything other than toy weapons till I was around that age. and to be more accurate my age was 11 but I say 8-9 because I'm turning in a few months and that adds the other year =p.
and I've had many teachers. The ones I did when I was younger under federations and at community centers are a lot different from the ones I have now. I probably could have gone as a kid they just wouldn't have taken me serious unless I showed it some how.
(Saber being ordered tonight Yay me <3~)
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My friends and I all duel quite frequently, and one of my friends in particular thinks exactly the way I do, it's essentially like two Force users fighting because of how in tune we are with what the other is about to do. He and I both use spins and flourishes to attack and defend against each other in duels where we are really trying to hit each other. It all depends on how fast you are, and what tactics work for you.
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My friends and I all duel quite frequently, and one of my friends in particular thinks exactly the way I do, it's essentially like two Force users fighting because of how in tune we are with what the other is about to do. He and I both use spins and flourishes to attack and defend against each other in duels where we are really trying to hit each other. It all depends on how fast you are, and what tactics work for you.
I will admit I do that when with my friends also (still trying to hit mind you). but that is more for fun, when I feel like messing around. But if I'm serious about it and I want to win I'm not going to spin. <- (Deadly Sin of pride when it comes to non lethal sword combat at cons... to bad no one wanted to "play" this year T_T)
But if you found something that suits you, I'm happy for you. Everyone's style is ultimately different (even within the same dojo everyone is still different in the way they preform.) to me I just think something not fancy and just simple and strait forward is the best way to go.
ultimately if you have fun with your friend that is great =D
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I understand what you mean, and that's what I'm saying, when we actually go at it full speed for real damage to each other... He and I usually have to utilize spins, high speed evasions and flourishes to get them to get inside each others guard. It's either the mark of someone training to be able to do so, or the mark of two people who know each others fighting styles so well that the complete unorthodox must be used.