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Star Wars Movies, Videos, TV, Books => Prequel Trilogy => Topic started by: Nicholas.slaydon on June 14, 2014, 07:01:30 PM

Title: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Nicholas.slaydon on June 14, 2014, 07:01:30 PM
STAR WARS FANS NEED TO APPRECIATE MORE & RedLetterMedia SUCKS! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alIqfcX24ec#)
There is a bit of language but it is not too bad. But this guy has some good ideas and i agree with him on every point.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: bombarta on June 15, 2014, 10:25:57 AM
jeez he don't shut up, only got half way through and couldn't listen any more, I think my ears were bleeding!
I think he's had a bit to much reefer hahaha
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: JediWizard on June 15, 2014, 12:56:33 PM
my tv has zooom mang ;)
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Nicholas.slaydon on June 15, 2014, 01:14:11 PM
my tv has zooom mang ;)
I know people have hated lucas since 1983 when Jedi came out and then lucas gave them the theatrical release in the 4x3 TV standard and then they hated him for that because It didnt look good enough. All this hate on Lucas and Star Wars makes me SICK!
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Psab Keel on June 20, 2014, 10:09:38 PM
The point is that Lucas just can't leave it alone.  That's all fans really want.  Just leave the originals alone.  Not only are most of the changes bad, but many of them are extraneous and take you out of the rhythm of the movie.  The central irony of Lucas' tinkering is that his idea is to "improve" the films.  But what he doesn't understand is that they worked just as they were without all of his changes.  The alterations only weaken the films. 

I agree with the guy in the video that it is much harder to create something than it is to criticize it.  Believe me, I know because I'm working on several novels.  The thing is that if you release it to the public, you open yourself up to criticism.  That's the risk you take.  Just as a fan has the choice as to whether they want to buy every edition, so Lucas has the choice to not listen to the critics.  It works both ways.  I don't hate George Lucas.  I don't know him.  I just don't agree with many of his artistic choices.  The point I think many people miss (and I gather this is what the guy in the video is getting at) is that people don't need to literally hate Lucas.  They can strongly disagree with his choices, but to hate a man they've never even met is absolutely insane.  Lucas did not ruin anyone's childhood, no matter how much fanboys want to whine that he did.       
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Nicholas.slaydon on June 21, 2014, 06:22:45 AM
The point is that Lucas just can't leave it alone.  That's all fans really want.  Just leave the originals alone.  Not only are most of the changes bad, but many of them are extraneous and take you out of the rhythm of the movie.  The central irony of Lucas' tinkering is that his idea is to "improve" the films.  But what he doesn't understand is that they worked just as they were without all of his changes.  The alterations only weaken the films. 

I agree with the guy in the video that it is much harder to create something than it is to criticize it.  Believe me, I know because I'm working on several novels.  The thing is that if you release it to the public, you open yourself up to criticism.  That's the risk you take.  Just as a fan has the choice as to whether they want to buy every edition, so Lucas has the choice to not listen to the critics.  It works both ways.  I don't hate George Lucas.  I don't know him.  I just don't agree with many of his artistic choices.  The point I think many people miss (and I gather this is what the guy in the video is getting at) is that people don't need to literally hate Lucas.  They can strongly disagree with his choices, but to hate a man they've never even met is absolutely insane.  Lucas did not ruin anyone's childhood, no matter how much fanboys want to whine that he did.     
I have heard this before and i dont really understand why people think the changes weaken the film, i mean most of them are small like Han shooting first, obi wan kenobi new cry, jabba the hut scene, jabbas palace scene in ROTJ Etc. And about the Han shooting first i really dont understand, i mean does it really affect the plot of the movie?
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: JediWizard on June 21, 2014, 06:57:51 AM
ok tryd to watch it again but couldnt,
yall need to chill Mang, no wham sayin mang haha
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Lord Bane on June 21, 2014, 11:19:57 PM
That guy is an idiot!
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Psab Keel on June 22, 2014, 06:15:53 AM
The fact that Greedo missed shooting Han in the face at point blank range is not only pathetic, and kind of makes you pity him, which is not something you should be establishing if he's threatening to kill Han and tells him that he's been looking forward to so doing for a long time.  Do we really need to see Greedo try and fail and pity him?  Better yet, why not just leave it alone?  In the original version of the film it established the ambiguous nature of Han Solo.  While Han was merely defending himself, he was also not above killing someone in a crowded bar.  It's a classic western motif of a gunslinger outdrawing his opponent in the saloon.  I mean for God's sake, the man's last name is SOLO.  He's only out for himself.  But by the end of the film he's changed by meeting Luke and Leia and realizes that there is more to the universe than just himself and his ship.  It's a satisfying character arc.

Another example of why the changes effect the film would be from Empire.  Towards the end of the film Vader tells his officers to bring his shuttle.  This ONE line saves a lot of time and the next shot we see of Vader, he's on the bridge of the Star Destroyer.  The pace of the film is crucial here.  Luke has just been rescued by his friends, but the Falcon is still on the run from Vader's forces and we still don't know if the hyperdrive even works, thus enabling our heroes to escape.  In the Special Edition, Vader's line is changed unnecessarily to "Alert my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival."  Then we have FOUR NEW SHOTS depicting Vader boarding the shuttle from Cloud City, the shuttle leaving the planet, the shuttle landing on the Star Destroyer, and Vader exiting the craft (which was an alternate angle from the opening sequence of Return of the Jedi for those of you who are paying close attention.) 

Meanwhile the main focus of the story is neglected and breaks the tension of the film by having those distracting scenes added, robbing our heroes escape of it's imminent danger.  Do we really need to see Vader do all of those things in order to understand that he left Cloud City and is now on his flag ship?  Because that's all we really need to know and it was established just fine in the original cut of the film.  The whole movie, Vader has been in hot pursuit of the rebels, and with Luke's defeat we get the sense that they might not escape the clutches of the Empire.  The new cut slows down the pace and distracts us from the main storyline.  I mean if they're going to add those new scenes, why didn't they add the additional shots they had of when they served dinner on the shuttle?  Or show Vader watching the in flight movie, which by the way was originally supposed to be Man on Fire until Vader heard the title and had it switched to Raiders. 

The other problem with the changes have to do with tone and it's best seen in the Special Edition of Return of the Jedi.  Jabba's palace is a dark, eerie place, with strange creatures and dank corners.  It's dangerous.  In fact it's so dangerous that Jabba (a stylized cross between a mythical dragon and an evil gangster) has one of our heroes hanging on his wall as a decoration.  Talk about evil!  In mythic terms, Jabba is the dragon in his dark cave, holding the treasure that the hero seeks.  There is even a monster far worse than the giant slug himself that lives in the caverns below the throne room.  With the push of a button Jabba can send anyone he wants down a trap door to feed the beast for his own entertainment.  It's the perfect setting for a rescue. 

Jabba, like other evil gangsters, has his own house band led by Sy Snootles and Max Rebo.  In the original cut of the film they serve the purpose that Salacious Crumb, and Jabba's dancers do.  To entertain his every whim.  Crumb is his court jester, and the dancers are supposed to be enticing, though I'd hate to imagine any further than that.  The original band song was short and alien sounding, much like the Cantina band song from the original Star Wars.  In the Special Edition the lights are turned up and out of nowhere the band is brightly colored, flamboyant and loud, which is an instant contrast from the dim mood lighting of the cavern and overall eerie silence.  Not to mention that their instruments completely block out Solo in Carbonite suspended on the wall behind their absurdly large drum, and whose life hangs precariously in the balance.  The continuity is broken as well in that none of the characters or instruments are seen in the background in any other shots before or after their dance number and the size of that drum alone would warrant that it be seen.  Their song is loud and brassy, sounding just like a gaudy Vegas house band.  It's downright terrible, and for some reason more additional character's are added, including three new backup singers, several drummers, a horn player, and a second alien singer. 

Then what makes it even worse is that Sy Snootles looks DIRECTLY into the camera, instantly breaking the fourth wall as if to wink at the audience.  Then her co singer does the same thing, only opens his mouth so wide that you can literally see down his throat.  It's downright obnoxious.  (Boba Fett is guilty of this too in the SE of A New Hope when he looks directly into the camera as if to say, hey, did you notice I was shoehorned into this scene too?)  The dark, dangerous atmosphere of the palace suddenly turns into a lighthearted, silly dance number.  While there is humor inherent in the Star Wars series, it shouldn't be when we need to understand the danger of a scene.  This is intercut with the scene of Oola struggling with Jabba, a shot that implies her resisting his sexual advances, and ultimately ends with her being fed to the Rancor below for refusing to give in to him.  Then Sy Snootles says, uh oh, in a cartoonish fashion as Oola is dropped to her death.  How are we as an audience supposed to reconcile those two completely contrasting ideas?  It doesn't make logical sense.  Either the palace is lighthearted and goofy, or it's dark and dangerous.  It can't be both.  Besides, what danger is there for our heroes if the place was goofy?  With no tension, there is no story.  It's as simple as that.

I don't think people need to hate George Lucas.  In fact, I hope they don't.  As I said earlier, none of us know him and from nearly every interview I've seen, he seems like he's actually a really great guy.  But as audience members, as fans, we have every right to either love or hate his choices as an artist.  I think THAT needs to be the distinction going forward. 

 

 
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Nicholas.slaydon on June 22, 2014, 12:23:05 PM
The fact that Greedo missed shooting Han in the face at point blank range is not only pathetic, and kind of makes you pity him, which is not something you should be establishing if he's threatening to kill Han and tells him that he's been looking forward to so doing for a long time.  Do we really need to see Greedo try and fail and pity him?  Better yet, why not just leave it alone?  In the original version of the film it established the ambiguous nature of Han Solo.  While Han was merely defending himself, he was also not above killing someone in a crowded bar.  It's a classic western motif of a gunslinger outdrawing his opponent in the saloon.  I mean for God's sake, the man's last name is SOLO.  He's only out for himself.  But by the end of the film he's changed by meeting Luke and Leia and realizes that there is more to the universe than just himself and his ship.  It's a satisfying character arc.

Another example of why the changes effect the film would be from Empire.  Towards the end of the film Vader tells his officers to bring his shuttle.  This ONE line saves a lot of time and the next shot we see of Vader, he's on the bridge of the Star Destroyer.  The pace of the film is crucial here.  Luke has just been rescued by his friends, but the Falcon is still on the run from Vader's forces and we still don't know if the hyperdrive even works, thus enabling our heroes to escape.  In the Special Edition, Vader's line is changed unnecessarily to "Alert my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival."  Then we have FOUR NEW SHOTS depicting Vader boarding the shuttle from Cloud City, the shuttle leaving the planet, the shuttle landing on the Star Destroyer, and Vader exiting the craft (which was an alternate angle from the opening sequence of Return of the Jedi for those of you who are paying close attention.) 

Meanwhile the main focus of the story is neglected and breaks the tension of the film by having those distracting scenes added, robbing our heroes escape of it's imminent danger.  Do we really need to see Vader do all of those things in order to understand that he left Cloud City and is now on his flag ship?  Because that's all we really need to know and it was established just fine in the original cut of the film.  The whole movie, Vader has been in hot pursuit of the rebels, and with Luke's defeat we get the sense that they might not escape the clutches of the Empire.  The new cut slows down the pace and distracts us from the main storyline.  I mean if they're going to add those new scenes, why didn't they add the additional shots they had of when they served dinner on the shuttle?  Or show Vader watching the in flight movie, which by the way was originally supposed to be Man on Fire until Vader heard the title and had it switched to Raiders. 

The other problem with the changes have to do with tone and it's best seen in the Special Edition of Return of the Jedi.  Jabba's palace is a dark, eerie place, with strange creatures and dank corners.  It's dangerous.  In fact it's so dangerous that Jabba (a stylized cross between a mythical dragon and an evil gangster) has one of our heroes hanging on his wall as a decoration.  Talk about evil!  In mythic terms, Jabba is the dragon in his dark cave, holding the treasure that the hero seeks.  There is even a monster far worse than the giant slug himself that lives in the caverns below the throne room.  With the push of a button Jabba can send anyone he wants down a trap door to feed the beast for his own entertainment.  It's the perfect setting for a rescue. 

Jabba, like other evil gangsters, has his own house band led by Sy Snootles and Max Rebo.  In the original cut of the film they serve the purpose that Salacious Crumb, and Jabba's dancers do.  To entertain his every whim.  Crumb is his court jester, and the dancers are supposed to be enticing, though I'd hate to imagine any further than that.  The original band song was short and alien sounding, much like the Cantina band song from the original Star Wars.  In the Special Edition the lights are turned up and out of nowhere the band is brightly colored, flamboyant and loud, which is an instant contrast from the dim mood lighting of the cavern and overall eerie silence.  Not to mention that their instruments completely block out Solo in Carbonite suspended on the wall behind their absurdly large drum, and whose life hangs precariously in the balance.  The continuity is broken as well in that none of the characters or instruments are seen in the background in any other shots before or after their dance number and the size of that drum alone would warrant that it be seen.  Their song is loud and brassy, sounding just like a gaudy Vegas house band.  It's downright terrible, and for some reason more additional character's are added, including three new backup singers, several drummers, a horn player, and a second alien singer. 

Then what makes it even worse is that Sy Snootles looks DIRECTLY into the camera, instantly breaking the fourth wall as if to wink at the audience.  Then her co singer does the same thing, only opens his mouth so wide that you can literally see down his throat.  It's downright obnoxious.  (Boba Fett is guilty of this too in the SE of A New Hope when he looks directly into the camera as if to say, hey, did you notice I was shoehorned into this scene too?)  The dark, dangerous atmosphere of the palace suddenly turns into a lighthearted, silly dance number.  While there is humor inherent in the Star Wars series, it shouldn't be when we need to understand the danger of a scene.  This is intercut with the scene of Oola struggling with Jabba, a shot that implies her resisting his sexual advances, and ultimately ends with her being fed to the Rancor below for refusing to give in to him.  Then Sy Snootles says, uh oh, in a cartoonish fashion as Oola is dropped to her death.  How are we as an audience supposed to reconcile those two completely contrasting ideas?  It doesn't make logical sense.  Either the palace is lighthearted and goofy, or it's dark and dangerous.  It can't be both.  Besides, what danger is there for our heroes if the place was goofy?  With no tension, there is no story.  It's as simple as that.

I don't think people need to hate George Lucas.  In fact, I hope they don't.  As I said earlier, none of us know him and from nearly every interview I've seen, he seems like he's actually a really great guy.  But as audience members, as fans, we have every right to either love or hate his choices as an artist.  I think THAT needs to be the distinction going forward. 

 

 
i dont see where the vader added dialouge changes the pace of the movie and i think that your evaluation of that scene is very "nitpicky". and about the band in ROTJ i think what lucas was going for was that it was not supposed to be a scary place unless you upset Jabba, i mean who would want to hang out in a place that they thought was scary? And about the Han shooting first i always thought that Han did shoot first and that Greedo shot right when Han shot him and the impact of Hans shot made Greedo miss, but i really dont understand what all the hate is about i mean it does not change the film at all, and i agree with what Lucas said about the scene, that Han would never kill a person unless he had a reason too. In the SE version Greedo shoots first and then Han shoots, but i dont think that Han would shoot before anyone shot at him. But that is just my opinion.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Onli-Won Kanomi on June 22, 2014, 01:40:52 PM
With all due respect to GL the idea that Han Solo would never kill a person unless he had to as a reason for not shooting first is ludicrous and even if true of Han's character wouldn't make sense. Do you think that if a gangbanger got the drop on a cop and was holding him at gun point and the cop could get his hand on say a hidden holdout revolver that he'd WAIT for the gangbanger to shoot FIRST?

"oh I'm very sorry you are uphappy with me Mr Criminal sir, I guess your holding a lethal weapon pointed directly at me whilst describing hostile intentions towards me thus demonstrating means, opportunity and motive to use lethal force to inflict imminent death or grievous boduily harm upon my person does not rise to the level of sufficient justifiable cause for me to use lethal force myself to prevent that therefore please be reassured that I will patiently wait for you to take a 'free shot' only AFTER which IF you don't kill me with your 'free' first shot will I feel justified that I "had to" kill you because I'm the Good Guy and we aren't allowed to ever shoot first its in the Good guy club rules the Bad Guy gets the first freebie otherwise 'wouldn't be sporting' ol chap...so please 'after you alphonse'..."

REALLY George???

Besides it being Darwin-Award worthy terminal stupidity he'd get drummed out of the department for doing something that asinine. If he survived. And if I were him I'd hate to face my old training officer/sergeant after word got around that I'd also put everyone else around at risk by allowing a bad actor a free shot...I expect some R Lee Ermey worthy choice words for that level of imbecility.

But more pointedly Han shot second, at the same time or anything other than Han shot first devalues the entire character arc of ANH which is about the principals BECOMING what at the beginning they are not; Han has his own "Heros Journey' just like Luke but his begins with him very clearly NOT being a hero which Han shot first is intended to underline in bold cap italics big type etc.

WHEN he shoots Greedo first Han Solo is NOT a 'hero' or even 'good guy' Han Solo is himself a BAD GUY...he's not in a "wretched hive of scum and villainy" by accident but because he IS a wretched scum and villain.

He doesn't hesitate and doesn't even think of hesitating and doesn't even CARE about giving Greedo a 'fair fight' and is happy to 'cheap shot' Greedo "better him than me" kid and yes he WOULD kill a person if he didn't have a reason [though he does have every good reason if he was good, which he then isn't] because he is not good he is BAD when he does so at that point of the film and isn't 'good' UNTIL the events of the film reach their denouement when he BECOMES a 'good guy' at the END for coming BACK to the DS to help Luke.

Anything else 'short circuits' Han's own hero's journey which as a student of Joseph Campbell GL surely knows is the journey TO Hero not a journey OF hero. Han shooting anything OTHER than first is utterly incomprehensible in any form of logic - would be tactically incomprehensible in real life, is incomprehensible characterization  in fiction writing and is incomprehensibly ANTI-mythological in the very school of thought [Campbells] that GL bases EVERYTHING else in SW on.

I can't begin to fathom why GL did it since it utterly RUINS Han Solo's character development throughout the entire OT.

I imagine one of his dim kiddles [probably the same one who worte Spider-Maul grr] coming up to him and saying "daddy why'd Han shoot first doesn't that make him a Bad Guy" and instead of honestly saying 'why yes dear at this point in the movie Han IS a Bad Guy he only becomes a Good Guy later" [which might have done the wee bairn a bit of good to introduce her to something a bit more intellectually challenging to contemplate than teletubbies er ewoks] he said "oh of course daddy's lil girl is always right of course SW is meant to be fit for morons and babies so I'll change it for you dearie so you don't have to ever worry your pretty lil head with any moral ambiguity in daddy's film and can grow up to write stupidized Sith spider dreck in my TV show..."

-sigh-



Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Nicholas.slaydon on June 22, 2014, 03:20:00 PM
With all due respect to GL the idea that Han Solo would never kill a person unless he had to as a reason for not shooting first is ludicrous and even if true of Han's character wouldn't make sense. Do you think that if a gangbanger got the drop on a cop and was holding him at gun point and the cop could get his hand on say a hidden holdout revolver that he'd WAIT for the gangbanger to shoot FIRST?

"oh I'm very sorry you are uphappy with me Mr Criminal sir, I guess your holding a lethal weapon pointed directly at me whilst describing hostile intentions towards me thus demonstrating means, opportunity and motive to use lethal force to inflict imminent death or grievous boduily harm upon my person does not rise to the level of sufficient justifiable cause for me to use lethal force myself to prevent that therefore please be reassured that I will patiently wait for you to take a 'free shot' only AFTER which IF you don't kill me with your 'free' first shot will I feel justified that I "had to" kill you because I'm the Good Guy and we aren't allowed to ever shoot first its in the Good guy club rules the Bad Guy gets the first freebie otherwise 'wouldn't be sporting' ol chap...so please 'after you alphonse'..."

REALLY George???

Besides it being Darwin-Award worthy terminal stupidity he'd get drummed out of the department for doing something that asinine. If he survived. And if I were him I'd hate to face my old training officer/sergeant after word got around that I'd also put everyone else around at risk by allowing a bad actor a free shot...I expect some R Lee Ermey worthy choice words for that level of imbecility.

But more pointedly Han shot second, at the same time or anything other than Han shot first devalues the entire character arc of ANH which is about the principals BECOMING what at the beginning they are not; Han has his own "Heros Journey' just like Luke but his begins with him very clearly NOT being a hero which Han shot first is intended to underline in bold cap italics big type etc.

WHEN he shoots Greedo first Han Solo is NOT a 'hero' or even 'good guy' Han Solo is himself a BAD GUY...he's not in a "wretched hive of scum and villainy" by accident but because he IS a wretched scum and villain.

He doesn't hesitate and doesn't even think of hesitating and doesn't even CARE about giving Greedo a 'fair fight' and is happy to 'cheap shot' Greedo "better him than me" kid and yes he WOULD kill a person if he didn't have a reason [though he does have every good reason if he was good, which he then isn't] because he is not good he is BAD when he does so at that point of the film and isn't 'good' UNTIL the events of the film reach their denouement when he BECOMES a 'good guy' at the END for coming BACK to the DS to help Luke.

Anything else 'short circuits' Han's own hero's journey which as a student of Joseph Campbell GL surely knows is the journey TO Hero not a journey OF hero. Han shooting anything OTHER than first is utterly incomprehensible in any form of logic - would be tactically incomprehensible in real life, is incomprehensible characterization  in fiction writing and is incomprehensibly ANTI-mythological in the very school of thought [Campbells] that GL bases EVERYTHING else in SW on.

I can't begin to fathom why GL did it since it utterly RUINS Han Solo's character development throughout the entire OT.

I imagine one of his dim kiddles [probably the same one who worte Spider-Maul grr] coming up to him and saying "daddy why'd Han shoot first doesn't that make him a Bad Guy" and instead of honestly saying 'why yes dear at this point in the movie Han IS a Bad Guy he only becomes a Good Guy later" [which might have done the wee bairn a bit of good to introduce her to something a bit more intellectually challenging to contemplate than teletubbies er ewoks] he said "oh of course daddy's lil girl is always right of course SW is meant to be fit for morons and babies so I'll change it for you dearie so you don't have to ever worry your pretty lil head with any moral ambiguity in daddy's film and can grow up to write stupidized Sith spider dreck in my TV show..."

-sigh-

I don't  believe that Han was a bad guy at the beginning of ANH, I think that he was a person who had good morals but had a bad job. It's like  saying that every drug dealer is a bad person. And like the guy in the video says Star Wars fans who don't like the changes always blow the changes out of proportion "like it was the most horrible moment in cinema" I mean I don't see how it ruins his character development.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Onli-Won Kanomi on June 22, 2014, 04:39:11 PM
It ruins his character development because if Han was ALWAYS the kind of 'good guy' who "would never kill a person unless he had to" from his first significant character scene then becoming a good guy at the end is meaningless - you can't BECOME what you already are - and therefore there IS NO character development for Han. He might just have well kept on going to pay off Jabba while the Rebel alliance died because at the end of that day he could say "I'm the same kind of wouldn't shoot first guy now as I was a wouldn't shoot first guy when I met those crazy old dead rebels and that nutty dead princess who gave me this money to pay you off Jabba now i'll just go back to the cantina where I can be the only good guy there among the wretched scum and villainy which I'm not cuz I'm just slumming my bad job doesn't define me the way my never shoot first policy does only everyone else there who would shoot first oh and people like you too mr crimelord Jabba but hey we know your really a kindly ol puddycat er slug with an unfortunate job."

Btw before ANH changed him Han smuggled Kessel "spice" - that means he WAS a 'drug dealer' [not retail but wholesale] and as for him being the kind who wouldn't shoot without a reason look at his gunbelt. Well worn cut down gunslinger speed rig...illegal overpowered blaster with sniper scope which doesn't exactly have dust and cobwebs on it...and quick draw reflexes to go with it we see in ESB. That's not indicative of a guy reluctant or in any way hesitant to shoot people or one who hasn't had to do it very much or would shoot only when forced into it. We might not have 'canon' stories that Han murdered people, but a little deductive reason paints a pretty clear picture of a guy who was not a poor misunderstood unwilling bystander caught up in a bad situation but nobly nonviolent while waiting for a couple of jedi and rebel pr1ncess to come into his life and rescue him from an unwanted life of crime eh? 
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Nicholas.slaydon on June 22, 2014, 04:59:49 PM
The character development for Han was about caring for anybody other than himself. And I don't see where you get illegal overpowered blaster. And i never said that han didn't shoot other people first I just said he didn't shoot first in Greedos situation, I just said that I don't think he would shoot first unless he had something to gain or someone was threatining him. I mean Han isn't a mindless killer like you make him out to be.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Professor Huyang on June 22, 2014, 05:13:36 PM
This thread is getting a little personal, I think. Lets all agree to disagree on this subject and lock it up before people get heated over this.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Nicholas.slaydon on June 22, 2014, 05:28:36 PM
I can live with that.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Onli-Won Kanomi on June 22, 2014, 11:07:17 PM
I disagree with GL's choice to retcon Han shoots first in the SE for the reasons I stated not to be disagreeable with anyone here. I don't believe anything I said was getting "personal" with Nicholas and if anyone thinks anything I said was then I am sorry that was not my intent.

To answer Nicholas question where I got what my opinion of Hans blaster - well,  from the DL-44 article on Wookiepedia specifically:

"...the ability to charge a bolt twice as powerful into a capacitor without damaging the sidearm..."

ergo overpowered, which gave it the:

"...capability to penetrate stormtrooper armor. This caused the Empire to put a restriction order upon this model, restricting and technically outlawing the purchase and ownership of the gun..."

ergo illegal

"...The DL-44 was the weapon of choice of the General and Alliance hero, once-smuggler Han Solo, who removed the barrel-sight to facilitate his fast-draw, something that the Empire deemed to be an illegal modification of a blaster."

ergo illegally modified

So per Wookiepedia Han's DL-44 was actually doubly illegal - illegal because of its sight modification and illegal to purchase and own at all because the Empire considered it overpowered for its ability to overcharge a 200% bolt that could penetrate stormtrooper armour.

My point is that doesn't sound like what a fine upstanding law-abiding citizen of the Empire who would never shoot first would choose to carry but what a criminal who 'lives by the sword...er blaster"..and expects to "die by the sw..blaster" would and imo it actually makes perfect sense that Han does carry that kind of highly illegal weapon precisely because he is a criminal who 'lives/dies by the blaster' and that actually makes it make even more sense that Han shot first because he's not someone shy about breaking laws or other rules and therefore isn't likely to be reluctant to shoot another criminal first, fast and dirty cheapshot under the table which is exactly what he does in the original SW I saw in 1977.

Perhaps some people who grew up after the OT was finished might have first seen ANH with the knowledge already in their mind that Han Solo is a good and even noble 'hero' because for them that was already established by the ending of the OT before they ever saw its beginning and for them it wouldn't seem a big deal. For people who first saw SW [not then ANH] in '77 our first exposure to Han Solo's moral character was the Greedo scene - we didn't know what kind of person he was and didn't know what kind he'd become 3 movies later...all we knew at that moment was what he began as and it was pretty clear at that moment he was not a good guy but a bad guy who Ben had characterized minutes before as one of the "scum and villainy" and Han's scene with Greedo only confirmed that and its because he WAS a bad guy at the beginning that made it MORE MEANINGFUL how he became more and more Heroic over the course of 3 movies - which in 1977 we had no idea would happen. That's character development. Han shot first underlines it. Anything else undermines it.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Nicholas.slaydon on June 23, 2014, 05:27:37 AM
I disagree with GL's choice to retcon Han shoots first in the SE for the reasons I stated not to be disagreeable with anyone here. I don't believe anything I said was getting "personal" with Nicholas and if anyone thinks anything I said was then I am sorry that was not my intent.

To answer Nicholas question where I got what my opinion of Hans blaster - well,  from the DL-44 article on Wookiepedia specifically:

"...the ability to charge a bolt twice as powerful into a capacitor without damaging the sidearm..."

ergo overpowered, which gave it the:

"...capability to penetrate stormtrooper armor. This caused the Empire to put a restriction order upon this model, restricting and technically outlawing the purchase and ownership of the gun..."

ergo illegal

"...The DL-44 was the weapon of choice of the General and Alliance hero, once-smuggler Han Solo, who removed the barrel-sight to facilitate his fast-draw, something that the Empire deemed to be an illegal modification of a blaster."

ergo illegally modified

So per Wookiepedia Han's DL-44 was actually doubly illegal - illegal because of its sight modification and illegal to purchase and own at all because the Empire considered it overpowered for its ability to overcharge a 200% bolt that could penetrate stormtrooper armour.

My point is that doesn't sound like what a fine upstanding law-abiding citizen of the Empire who would never shoot first would choose to carry but what a criminal who 'lives by the sword...er blaster"..and expects to "die by the sw..blaster" would and imo it actually makes perfect sense that Han does carry that kind of highly illegal weapon precisely because he is a criminal who 'lives/dies by the blaster' and that actually makes it make even more sense that Han shot first because he's not someone shy about breaking laws or other rules and therefore isn't likely to be reluctant to shoot another criminal first, fast and dirty cheapshot under the table which is exactly what he does in the original SW I saw in 1977.

Perhaps some people who grew up after the OT was finished might have first seen ANH with the knowledge already in their mind that Han Solo is a good and even noble 'hero' because for them that was already established by the ending of the OT before they ever saw its beginning and for them it wouldn't seem a big deal. For people who first saw SW [not then ANH] in '77 our first exposure to Han Solo's moral character was the Greedo scene - we didn't know what kind of person he was and didn't know what kind he'd become 3 movies later...all we knew at that moment was what he began as and it was pretty clear at that moment he was not a good guy but a bad guy who Ben had characterized minutes before as one of the "scum and villainy" and Han's scene with Greedo only confirmed that and its because he WAS a bad guy at the beginning that made it MORE MEANINGFUL how he became more and more Heroic over the course of 3 movies - which in 1977 we had no idea would happen. That's character development. Han shot first underlines it. Anything else undermines it.
What you said about the DL-44 was taken from a non-canon source so therefore is irrelevant.
And I never said Han was a law abiding citizen I just said that in the Greedo situation he did not in  fact shoot first, I think han would shoot first in many situations before he met Luke, Obi-Wan etc. But remember the movies you have been clinging onto have been non-canon for 17 years. I posted a link to a video in another thread on this board and the guy says that SW fans also like to cling on to the changes to the films because of nostalgia and rembering movies that are no longer canon.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: ScrimpyPIE on June 23, 2014, 06:09:42 AM
What people need to understand about us 'angry old people' (fans Pre-Disney) is that ,figuratively speaking, we loved the baby before it grew up and "needed work done" to be loved by the masses. We, like parents, loved it, nurtured it, thought about what would happen to it later in life, and guided it to the best of our abilities. And, like parents, we haven't stopped loving it even though we may not agree with everything it's experienced. Newcomers might come and love what they see now, but for us oldies, it's still the story we had at the start. So that's why we don't shut up and seem so nostalgic.

P.S.- before I'm called an "old fart", I'm 23 ;)
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: COUNT DOOKU on June 23, 2014, 06:48:05 AM
Here's the difference in Han Shooting First, and then Shooting second.

I watched the edited versions before the originals, so always thought Han shot second. This first scene shown Han is his introduction, it tells you who the person is. This is true for all movie characters. When I see him have this dialogue, then waiting for greed to shoot, then him shoot first, it put into my mind everyone was out to get him and he was justified in protecting himself- as he was being pursued unjustly.

Then, I saw the originals. I watched the same scene, the same dialogue, and saw Han shoot first. It puts him in a completely different and dark light. He no longer has that air of pity around him. Rather, he is unpredictable and rather ruthless too. It makes his redemption at the end all the more sweet too, as he has more to turn from.

In the end, it is all in how GL wanted Solo portrayed, and it appears he wanted a sympathetic character intro, rather than a ruthless bounty hunter intro.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Nicholas.slaydon on June 23, 2014, 07:23:49 AM
Here's the difference in Han Shooting First, and then Shooting second.

I watched the edited versions before the originals, so always thought Han shot second. This first scene shown Han is his introduction, it tells you who the person is. This is true for all movie characters. When I see him have this dialogue, then waiting for greed to shoot, then him shoot first, it put into my mind everyone was out to get him and he was justified in protecting himself- as he was being pursued unjustly.

Then, I saw the originals. I watched the same scene, the same dialogue, and saw Han shoot first. It puts him in a completely different and dark light. He no longer has that air of pity around him. Rather, he is unpredictable and rather ruthless too. It makes his redemption at the end all the more sweet too, as he has more to turn from.

In the end, it is all in how GL wanted Solo portrayed, and it appears he wanted a sympathetic character intro, rather than a ruthless bounty hunter intro.
Exactly you worded it better than I ever could. I have never seen the non-SE's.
And not until a year ago I found out that people hate the SE and the prequels. And when I saw the scenes taken from the original version I never really cared because I didn't analyze it as much as others do because I didn't really think it changed the plot or affect of the movie.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Onli-Won Kanomi on June 23, 2014, 11:35:39 AM
Here's the difference in Han Shooting First, and then Shooting second.

I watched the edited versions before the originals, so always thought Han shot second. This first scene shown Han is his introduction, it tells you who the person is. This is true for all movie characters. When I see him have this dialogue, then waiting for greed to shoot, then him shoot first, it put into my mind everyone was out to get him and he was justified in protecting himself- as he was being pursued unjustly.

Then, I saw the originals. I watched the same scene, the same dialogue, and saw Han shoot first. It puts him in a completely different and dark light. He no longer has that air of pity around him. Rather, he is unpredictable and rather ruthless too. It makes his redemption at the end all the more sweet too, as he has more to turn from.

In the end, it is all in how GL wanted Solo portrayed, and it appears he wanted a sympathetic character intro, rather than a ruthless bounty hunter intro.

Exactly right. Its all about how GL wanted the character portrayed and therefore why that first scene is so important which establishes the lighter or darker 'tone' to him exactly as you say.

The problem is that the way GL wanted the character portrayed CHANGED between the original Star Wars and the ANH SE and in that time period hundreds of millions of people first saw the character portrayed one way and loved him that way and then GL changed his mind about how he wanted Solo portrayed and made the SE and millions more perhaps because they were younger first saw Solo that way and may have loved that and we and they literally don't see "Star Wars" the same way because of those changes. There's nothing wrong with the newer fans preferring the newer way - the HAN SHOT FIRST 'truthers' disagreement is with Lucas NOT fellow SW fans old or new - WE all love SW together eh?

The ANGER towards GL on the part of the 'old fans' is from feeling DISSED by GL - that he basically decided 'I've already tapped the wallets of the old fans for the old version...now I really care more about making more NEW money from a new generation of fans so I'll change what the old fans love to appeal to the new cuz I've already got the old fans old money who needs em anymore?' Basically we had been LOYAL to GL for many years but when he didn't need us anymore he had no problem being DISLOYAL to we who had made him a billionaire and 'star' and SW into a success in the first place.

The other aspect is a broader philosophy-of-art issue of an artist who changes their mind about their work then changing the work itself AFTER it has been shown to its audience.

Others have pointed out elsewhere that the prequels quality suffered as compared to the OT because GL became less willing to collaborate over the years and basically wanted to 'dictate' the Prequels like a 'one man show'. The problem with that is that anyone who has ever been to film school learns FIRST THING that filmmaking is integrally inherently a collaborative artform. From week one I had to work on film projects with other students and no one was a 'one man band'. Filmmaking is understood to be the most collaborative of ALL arts but it is just as true that ALL ART IS A COLLABORATION BETWEEN ARTIST AND AUDIENCE. The artist [or artists in the case of collaborative artforms like film] invests their creativity into the artwork and the audience invests their receptivity into the same work. This receptivity is no unimportant thing; Art creates Culture and Culture creates Civilization because Art has the power to change the human heart and mind so audiences opening themselves to receive art is a transformative event and the willingness to do so is an investment of Trust in the artist. At the moment any art is shown to the audience it becomes part of the audience as much as it was part of the artist before the artist made it. It no longer belongs to the artist alone but to the common culture of the World and the cultural heritage of Humankind.

To illustrate the point imagine that Van Gogh were still alive today and had maintained physical possession of his works after showing them in galleries and now decided "Hmmm...I used to but now don't like sunflowers anymore...I think I'll paint daisies over it".

Can you imagine the shockwave of outrage that roll across the planet? I promise you it would dwarf what we "Han Shot First" fans feel about GL. Van Gogh would go instantly from being 'the greatest artist of all time' according to Dr Who lol but certainly one of the greatest to being roundly considered the greatest art VANDAL in history...he would be universally HATED with an incandescent FURY by every art fan and cultured person on the planet and it wouldn't matter a bit how well painted the new "Daisies" was or even if it was objectively 'better' artistically than Sunflowers - in the common culture of Mankind the name of Van Gogh would burn in infamy forever after.

But Van Gogh is dead so he can't do that.

True...but somebody 'owns' Sunflowers today...if that 'owner' decided to repaint daises over it the outrage would be no less and it wouldn't matter except legally that he 'owns' it because in a very real sense AFTER it is shown to World a work of art 'belongs' to the World, not whoever made it or whoever bought it.

How much vandalizing a work of art matters partly depends on how 'important' the artwork is deemed to be which to culture is a measure on how much the work is considered 'transformative' and/or how much contribution it makes to culture-building which civilization depends upon.

Snooty art critics might disagree but I'll defend any day the proposition that Star Wars literally changed the world in 1977. That it changed the nature of filmmaking and the art of cinema itself. That it changed the culture of America and of the World. That it created a new Mythology and myth-making is as important today as it was to the ancient Greeks and that Luke Skywalker and Spock and Superman and Sherlock Holmes et al matter to our civilization as Apollo or Hercules or Achilles or Zeus/Jupiter mattered to Graeco-Roman civilization.

GL 'painting over' the REAL "Star Wars" might seem less 'important' in the grand scheme of human civilization but the PRINCIPLE of the thing would be and is exactly the same.

The prequels showed that GL doesn't seem to care about film being a collaborative artform but the SE shows he doesn't care about Art being a cultural collaboration with the audience so was willing to vandalize art which is terrible even if it was his own. That's sad about GL but also for all of us.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Nicholas.slaydon on June 23, 2014, 12:19:17 PM
Here's the difference in Han Shooting First, and then Shooting second.

I watched the edited versions before the originals, so always thought Han shot second. This first scene shown Han is his introduction, it tells you who the person is. This is true for all movie characters. When I see him have this dialogue, then waiting for greed to shoot, then him shoot first, it put into my mind everyone was out to get him and he was justified in protecting himself- as he was being pursued unjustly.

Then, I saw the originals. I watched the same scene, the same dialogue, and saw Han shoot first. It puts him in a completely different and dark light. He no longer has that air of pity around him. Rather, he is unpredictable and rather ruthless too. It makes his redemption at the end all the more sweet too, as he has more to turn from.

In the end, it is all in how GL wanted Solo portrayed, and it appears he wanted a sympathetic character intro, rather than a ruthless bounty hunter intro.

Exactly right. Its all about how GL wanted the character portrayed and therefore why that first scene is so important which establishes the lighter or darker 'tone' to him exactly as you say.

The problem is that the way GL wanted the character portrayed CHANGED between the original Star Wars and the ANH SE and in that time period hundreds of millions of people first saw the character portrayed one way and loved him that way and then GL changed his mind about how he wanted Solo portrayed and made the SE and millions more perhaps because they were younger first saw Solo that way and may have loved that and we and they literally don't see "Star Wars" the same way because of those changes. There's nothing wrong with the newer fans preferring the newer way - the HAN SHOT FIRST 'truthers' disagreement is with Lucas NOT fellow SW fans old or new - WE all love SW together eh?

The ANGER towards GL on the part of the 'old fans' is from feeling DISSED by GL - that he basically decided 'I've already tapped the wallets of the old fans for the old version...now I really care more about making more NEW money from a new generation of fans so I'll change what the old fans love to appeal to the new cuz I've already got the old fans old money who needs em anymore?' Basically we had been LOYAL to GL for many years but when he didn't need us anymore he had no problem being DISLOYAL to we who had made him a billionaire and 'star' and SW into a success in the first place.

The other aspect is a broader philosophy-of-art issue of an artist who changes their mind about their work then changing the work itself AFTER it has been shown to its audience.

Others have pointed out elsewhere that the prequels quality suffered as compared to the OT because GL became less willing to collaborate over the years and basically wanted to 'dictate' the Prequels like a 'one man show'. The problem with that is that anyone who has ever been to film school learns FIRST THING that filmmaking is integrally inherently a collaborative artform. From week one I had to work on film projects with other students and no one was a 'one man band'. Filmmaking is understood to be the most collaborative of ALL arts but it is just as true that ALL ART IS A COLLABORATION BETWEEN ARTIST AND AUDIENCE. The artist [or artists in the case of collaborative artforms like film] invests their creativity into the artwork and the audience invests their receptivity into the same work. This receptivity is no unimportant thing; Art creates Culture and Culture creates Civilization because Art has the power to change the human heart and mind so audiences opening themselves to receive art is a transformative event and the willingness to do so is an investment of Trust in the artist. At the moment any art is shown to the audience it becomes part of the audience as much as it was part of the artist before the artist made it. It no longer belongs to the artist alone but to the common culture of the World and the cultural heritage of Humankind.

To illustrate the point imagine that Van Gogh were still alive today and had maintained physical possession of his works after showing them in galleries and now decided "Hmmm...I used to but now don't like sunflowers anymore...I think I'll paint daisies over it".

Can you imagine the shockwave of outrage that roll across the planet? I promise you it would dwarf what we "Han Shot First" fans feel about GL. Van Gogh would go instantly from being 'the greatest artist of all time' according to Dr Who lol but certainly one of the greatest to being roundly considered the greatest art VANDAL in history...he would be universally HATED with an incandescent FURY by every art fan and cultured person on the planet and it wouldn't matter a bit how well painted the new "Daisies" was or even if it was objectively 'better' artistically than Sunflowers - in the common culture of Mankind the name of Van Gogh would burn in infamy forever after.

But Van Gogh is dead so he can't do that.

True...but somebody 'owns' Sunflowers today...if that 'owner' decided to repaint daises over it the outrage would be no less and it wouldn't matter except legally that he 'owns' it because in a very real sense AFTER it is shown to World a work of art 'belongs' to the World, not whoever made it or whoever bought it.

How much vandalizing a work of art matters partly depends on how 'important' the artwork is deemed to be which to culture is a measure on how much the work is considered 'transformative' and/or how much contribution it makes to culture-building which civilization depends upon.

Snooty art critics might disagree but I'll defend any day the proposition that Star Wars literally changed the world in 1977. That it changed the nature of filmmaking and the art of cinema itself. That it changed the culture of America and of the World. That it created a new Mythology and myth-making is as important today as it was to the ancient Greeks and that Luke Skywalker and Spock and Superman and Sherlock Holmes et al matter to our civilization as Apollo or Hercules or Achilles or Zeus/Jupiter mattered to Graeco-Roman civilization.

GL 'painting over' the REAL "Star Wars" might seem less 'important' in the grand scheme of human civilization but the PRINCIPLE of the thing would be and is exactly the same.

The prequels showed that GL doesn't seem to care about film being a collaborative artform but the SE shows he doesn't care about Art being a cultural collaboration with the audience so was willing to vandalize art which is terrible even if it was his own. That's sad about GL but also for all of us.
Well for one I don't think the prequels "failed" in any sense.
I think that what most problems people have with the prequels is that it wasn't what they wanted to see, and it wasn't what they expected. After 16 years of watching 3 films from an incomplete series people start to try and fill in the gaps and they came up with their own idea of what the story was. A proven fact is "if someone tells themself something long enough they will eventually start to believe it". People had came up with stories they fell in love with and characters that they created that eventually they began to think that their story was canon. And when they saw the film they saw not what they wanted to see but what they needed to see. And what you say about George Lucas, he isn't a "money-grabbing" buisnessman, he is a man who made a "silly sifi film in the 70's" and it blew up WAY over what he expected. And remember he only did the prequels as a "one man show" because he couldn't get anyone else to do it. He asked Steven Spielerg to direct the film, but due to his relations with the SAG he couldn't direct the prequels. And George asked the very man who wrote the screenplay for Empire Strikes Back, and he said no. And then George asked other people who he wanted to do the directing, screenplay etc. Everyone George wanted to do the prequels said no. An he knew that he could do better than the people other than the ones he asked and so he did it himself. Like I've  said before I like the prequels and if george was a "money hungry" buisnessman he would have already released the original version of the episodes IV-VI in their original format, because there is money there.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Psab Keel on June 23, 2014, 09:15:54 PM
I guess the point of my post was more to point out that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."  While Lucas certainly has the right to do whatever he wants with his films, they didn't need any fixing and worked just fine as they were before all the alterations.  If they hadn't worked before the changes, the films wouldn't have become the cultural touchstones that they are.  Star Wars ultimately is so much bigger than Lucas and I think he made the right choice to let his creation live on in the form of selling his companies to Disney.  This way it can live on long after him.

As far as the prequels, sure I had ideas about what would happen, but my disappointment had to do with the scripts more than with anything else.  As a writer I see so much story potential that could have been and what was delivered could have been far better.  Though I thought the production and casting were superb. 

But I can agree that we can disagree.  I mean at the end of the day, we all love Star Wars and that's why we're here! 
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Onli-Won Kanomi on June 24, 2014, 01:46:59 AM
I liked the prequels mostly esp TPM and though I thought they suffered for too much 'single vision' it was generally a pretty cool one except the 'romance' in AOTC. And I never had any preconceived notion of what the prequels should be. I never filled in in my mind what I thought the prequels should be except that when Old Ben said he and Luke's father fought together in the Clone Wars I assumed that meant that Jedi fought clones not with clones against someone else - other than that I didn't think anything about it til 1999 because I always assumed that eventually GL would get those movies made and I'd find out then or his heirs would after he was dead and frankly that's when I thought the sequel trilogy would get made too, posthumously, though I'm glad not to wait that long since I have a heart condition and might die before Lucas does.

But yes we all agree we're here because we all love star wars and I salute ALL star wars fans.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Darth Solace on June 28, 2014, 10:32:06 AM
I disagree with GL's choice to retcon Han shoots first in the SE for the reasons I stated not to be disagreeable with anyone here. I don't believe anything I said was getting "personal" with Nicholas and if anyone thinks anything I said was then I am sorry that was not my intent.

To answer Nicholas question where I got what my opinion of Hans blaster - well,  from the DL-44 article on Wookiepedia specifically:

"...the ability to charge a bolt twice as powerful into a capacitor without damaging the sidearm..."

ergo overpowered, which gave it the:

"...capability to penetrate stormtrooper armor. This caused the Empire to put a restriction order upon this model, restricting and technically outlawing the purchase and ownership of the gun..."

ergo illegal

"...The DL-44 was the weapon of choice of the General and Alliance hero, once-smuggler Han Solo, who removed the barrel-sight to facilitate his fast-draw, something that the Empire deemed to be an illegal modification of a blaster."

ergo illegally modified

So per Wookiepedia Han's DL-44 was actually doubly illegal - illegal because of its sight modification and illegal to purchase and own at all because the Empire considered it overpowered for its ability to overcharge a 200% bolt that could penetrate stormtrooper armour.

My point is that doesn't sound like what a fine upstanding law-abiding citizen of the Empire who would never shoot first would choose to carry but what a criminal who 'lives by the sword...er blaster"..and expects to "die by the sw..blaster" would and imo it actually makes perfect sense that Han does carry that kind of highly illegal weapon precisely because he is a criminal who 'lives/dies by the blaster' and that actually makes it make even more sense that Han shot first because he's not someone shy about breaking laws or other rules and therefore isn't likely to be reluctant to shoot another criminal first, fast and dirty cheapshot under the table which is exactly what he does in the original SW I saw in 1977.

Perhaps some people who grew up after the OT was finished might have first seen ANH with the knowledge already in their mind that Han Solo is a good and even noble 'hero' because for them that was already established by the ending of the OT before they ever saw its beginning and for them it wouldn't seem a big deal. For people who first saw SW [not then ANH] in '77 our first exposure to Han Solo's moral character was the Greedo scene - we didn't know what kind of person he was and didn't know what kind he'd become 3 movies later...all we knew at that moment was what he began as and it was pretty clear at that moment he was not a good guy but a bad guy who Ben had characterized minutes before as one of the "scum and villainy" and Han's scene with Greedo only confirmed that and its because he WAS a bad guy at the beginning that made it MORE MEANINGFUL how he became more and more Heroic over the course of 3 movies - which in 1977 we had no idea would happen. That's character development. Han shot first underlines it. Anything else undermines it.
What you said about the DL-44 was taken from a non-canon source so therefore is irrelevant.
And I never said Han was a law abiding citizen I just said that in the Greedo situation he did not in  fact shoot first, I think han would shoot first in many situations before he met Luke, Obi-Wan etc. But remember the movies you have been clinging onto have been non-canon for 17 years. I posted a link to a video in another thread on this board and the guy says that SW fans also like to cling on to the changes to the films because of nostalgia and rembering movies that are no longer canon.
I disagree with the wookipeedia comment.
Quote- Wookieepedia strives to be the Internet's foremost comprehensive resource for Star Wars canon information. To this end, wookipeedia adheres to the canon doctrines set forth by Lucasfilm Ltd. and its subsidiaries.
I don't remember anyone ever saying that wookipeedia gave out non-canon information. I've always felt that they were a very reliable source for technical information.
I also have to agree with onlin-won. I never had any preconceived notions as to what the prequels would be like, or what I should expect. I personally enjoyed the prequels on a number of levels, but I feel that the original trilogy is far superior. I don't think it has much to do with the acting, but more to do with dialogue. Aotc was an especially good example of this. Many of the lines that Hayden had to deliver were just awful, and he did the best he could with them. The romantic aspects, which were a necessary part of this story, were very poorly written. But again, I think Hayden did the best he could with the material he was given.
I also very much disagree with many of the SE changes and additions that were made. The band scene in rotj is the absolute worst. Greedo shooting first was, in my humble opinion, an unnecessary and very poorly thought out divergence from the original story. As was mentioned, it weakens Hans character development, and takes the edge off of his "space pirate" persona.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Nicholas.slaydon on June 28, 2014, 01:06:53 PM
I disagree with GL's choice to retcon Han shoots first in the SE for the reasons I stated not to be disagreeable with anyone here. I don't believe anything I said was getting "personal" with Nicholas and if anyone thinks anything I said was then I am sorry that was not my intent.

To answer Nicholas question where I got what my opinion of Hans blaster - well,  from the DL-44 article on Wookiepedia specifically:

"...the ability to charge a bolt twice as powerful into a capacitor without damaging the sidearm..."

ergo overpowered, which gave it the:

"...capability to penetrate stormtrooper armor. This caused the Empire to put a restriction order upon this model, restricting and technically outlawing the purchase and ownership of the gun..."

ergo illegal

"...The DL-44 was the weapon of choice of the General and Alliance hero, once-smuggler Han Solo, who removed the barrel-sight to facilitate his fast-draw, something that the Empire deemed to be an illegal modification of a blaster."

ergo illegally modified

So per Wookiepedia Han's DL-44 was actually doubly illegal - illegal because of its sight modification and illegal to purchase and own at all because the Empire considered it overpowered for its ability to overcharge a 200% bolt that could penetrate stormtrooper armour.

My point is that doesn't sound like what a fine upstanding law-abiding citizen of the Empire who would never shoot first would choose to carry but what a criminal who 'lives by the sword...er blaster"..and expects to "die by the sw..blaster" would and imo it actually makes perfect sense that Han does carry that kind of highly illegal weapon precisely because he is a criminal who 'lives/dies by the blaster' and that actually makes it make even more sense that Han shot first because he's not someone shy about breaking laws or other rules and therefore isn't likely to be reluctant to shoot another criminal first, fast and dirty cheapshot under the table which is exactly what he does in the original SW I saw in 1977.

Perhaps some people who grew up after the OT was finished might have first seen ANH with the knowledge already in their mind that Han Solo is a good and even noble 'hero' because for them that was already established by the ending of the OT before they ever saw its beginning and for them it wouldn't seem a big deal. For people who first saw SW [not then ANH] in '77 our first exposure to Han Solo's moral character was the Greedo scene - we didn't know what kind of person he was and didn't know what kind he'd become 3 movies later...all we knew at that moment was what he began as and it was pretty clear at that moment he was not a good guy but a bad guy who Ben had characterized minutes before as one of the "scum and villainy" and Han's scene with Greedo only confirmed that and its because he WAS a bad guy at the beginning that made it MORE MEANINGFUL how he became more and more Heroic over the course of 3 movies - which in 1977 we had no idea would happen. That's character development. Han shot first underlines it. Anything else undermines it.
What you said about the DL-44 was taken from a non-canon source so therefore is irrelevant.
And I never said Han was a law abiding citizen I just said that in the Greedo situation he did not in  fact shoot first, I think han would shoot first in many situations before he met Luke, Obi-Wan etc. But remember the movies you have been clinging onto have been non-canon for 17 years. I posted a link to a video in another thread on this board and the guy says that SW fans also like to cling on to the changes to the films because of nostalgia and rembering movies that are no longer canon.
I disagree with the wookipeedia comment.
Quote- Wookieepedia strives to be the Internet's foremost comprehensive resource for Star Wars canon information. To this end, wookipeedia adheres to the canon doctrines set forth by Lucasfilm Ltd. and its subsidiaries.
I don't remember anyone ever saying that wookipeedia gave out non-canon information. I've always felt that they were a very reliable source for technical information.
I also have to agree with onlin-won. I never had any preconceived notions as to what the prequels would be like, or what I should expect. I personally enjoyed the prequels on a number of levels, but I feel that the original trilogy is far superior. I don't think it has much to do with the acting, but more to do with dialogue. Aotc was an especially good example of this. Many of the lines that Hayden had to deliver were just awful, and he did the best he could with them. The romantic aspects, which were a necessary part of this story, were very poorly written. But again, I think Hayden did the best he could with the material he was given.
I also very much disagree with many of the SE changes and additions that were made. The band scene in rotj is the absolute worst. Greedo shooting first was, in my humble opinion, an unnecessary and very poorly thought out divergence from the original story. As was mentioned, it weakens Hans character development, and takes the edge off of his "space pirate" persona.
Well as to the DL-44, that description was made in EU content, therefore is non-canon. And as for the prequels have you ever seen a teenage relationship that is not embarresing? I had no problem with the relationship and thought tht it was rather realistic. And as for the Greedo scene I think that people blow a simple change that I wouldn't have even noticed WAY out of proportion. You can find a problem with every scene in every movie if you try hard enough. And how does that change his character development? What Onli-wan said I thought was rather nit-picky and was totally blown out of proportion. But like the guy in the video said, the changes were made to something someone loved and the idea that it is not the same as the one you watched to begin with messes with you. When I heard about the "Han shot first" thing I thought it was a joke, until I heard someone get infuriated at the thought of the change, I thought that it was ridiculous and I still do. Like I said I think that it was blown WAY out of proportion.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Darth Solace on June 28, 2014, 01:38:33 PM
I think u may be being a bit bit-picky about a few things as well the dl44? Just because it was commented on in EU dosent mean the info isint accurate. I understand everyone has an opinion here, and that's one of the things that makes this community so great. But u may be fighting a bit of an uphill battle here. If GL decided to create a special edition of the prequels and changed a bunch of stuff, even seemingly small stuff, you would likely have an opinion about it as well. The general consensus here is that a change was not needed to be made to the ot, and most fans prefer the unaltered version. We can all pick out things that we like and don't like about each trilogy, but none of us is going to convince the other to see things any other way. We all like what we like, and don't like what we don't like. I'm not sure what everyone hopes to accomplish by continuously writing our opinions over and over. It seems like your trying to accomplish something, I'm just not sure what.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Darth Solace on June 28, 2014, 02:12:49 PM
And what makes the wookie article eu and "therefore non-canon"? I looked at the dl44 article, and many of the references come from canon sources. Where does it say that the article contains non canon info? Just for my future reference.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Nicholas.slaydon on June 28, 2014, 02:26:22 PM
I think u may be being a bit bit-picky about a few things as well the dl44? Just because it was commented on in EU dosent mean the info isint accurate. I understand everyone has an opinion here, and that's one of the things that makes this community so great. But u may be fighting a bit of an uphill battle here. If GL decided to create a special edition of the prequels and changed a bunch of stuff, even seemingly small stuff, you would likely have an opinion about it as well. The general consensus here is that a change was not needed to be made to the ot, and most fans prefer the unaltered version. We can all pick out things that we like and don't like about each trilogy, but none of us is going to convince the other to see things any other way. We all like what we like, and don't like what we don't like. I'm not sure what everyone hopes to accomplish by continuously writing our opinions over and over. It seems like your trying to accomplish something, I'm just not sure what.
What you said about the situation of the SE prequels, i agree with you, but i would't get on the internet and complain about it for 20 years. I would keep it to myself and watch the versions that i liked. and i agree with you that everyone has their own opinion, and the point that i am trying to accomplish is to get the people that hate the SE changes to get over it. It was 20 years ago it isn't going to change and the people complaining  about it isn't going to change George's mind. And about your other question when looking at the sources used for the article all of them are non-canon, with the exception of 4 clone wars episodes that only mention the DL-44 as a "High Powered Blaster". But it never said anywhere that the power of the blast was to strong and therefore illegal and all of that, it just stated that the blaster was a DL-44 and that it was a "High Powered Blaster".
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Darth Solace on June 28, 2014, 03:31:29 PM
Yeah, I get what you're trying to do. Good luck with it. Lol. I don't like the changes, but I don't really complain about them unless someone asks my opinion. I don't think there would be as much backlash about them if they were simply offered as an extra on the DVD or bluray, where u could choose to watch the original version or the special edition. To change it and make it the only version available to buy for the last 15 years or so is somewhat foolish I think. I think offering both versions would make the changes more palatable.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Darth Solace on June 28, 2014, 09:05:25 PM
Oh, and the dl44 is the blaster Han uses in the movies, and all 3 movies are in fact listed among the sources for the wookieepedia article. To me, that makes the information canon, as well as the fact that the website endeavors to only present canonical information, as pointed out in the quote I mentioned earlier. You should read the wookieepedia canon policy. It's very interesting. It states that they will only present information that is approved by lucasfilm as canon. That tells me that the technical info found in the article about Hans dl44 is in fact considered to be accurate. I think we can all generally accept the articles found on wookipeedia to be canon. Also gl has stated that all previous eu information should be considered source material for technical information for all new canon. To me, we are now splitting extremely thin hairs lol. I think we're getting a lot nit- picky.
All of this was simply a footnote in onlin wons comment regarding the type of character Han was at the beginning of the story, and how he changed dramatically by the end of the story. The simple change of having Greedo shoot first actually does, in my opinion weaken Hans character development. It shows that his development from scoundrel to hero was not as drastic as we all remember from the original cut of the movie. It actually makes his evolution slightly less significant. It means that he was already a pretty good guy at the beginning, so he didn't have far in his personal journey to go.
You've never seen the original movies in their original cut, but those of us that grew up with those movies do have a strong opinion of the changes. For many of us, these small changes combine to result in a fairly different experience when watching the movies now. The main story is there, but the pace and overall experience is different than the movies that we fell in love with. U may say that different does not mean worse, but for many of us, in this case the "improvements" do make the experience worse. But you are right, complaining about it won't get us very much lol.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Onli-Won Kanomi on June 29, 2014, 06:27:24 AM
Disney is LEGALLY free to make a new Star Wars movie with a Jedi from the planet Rodentia.

But we are free to think that Jedi Master Mi-ki Maoz is as stupid an idea as Jar-Jar, or Han not shooting first.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Nicholas.slaydon on June 29, 2014, 10:05:21 AM
Oh, and the dl44 is the blaster Han uses in the movies, and all 3 movies are in fact listed among the sources for the wookieepedia article. To me, that makes the information canon, as well as the fact that the website endeavors to only present canonical information, as pointed out in the quote I mentioned earlier. You should read the wookieepedia canon policy. It's very interesting. It states that they will only present information that is approved by lucasfilm as canon. That tells me that the technical info found in the article about Hans dl44 is in fact considered to be accurate. I think we can all generally accept the articles found on wookipeedia to be canon. Also gl has stated that all previous eu information should be considered source material for technical information for all new canon. To me, we are now splitting extremely thin hairs lol. I think we're getting a lot nit- picky.
All of this was simply a footnote in onlin wons comment regarding the type of character Han was at the beginning of the story, and how he changed dramatically by the end of the story. The simple change of having Greedo shoot first actually does, in my opinion weaken Hans character development. It shows that his development from scoundrel to hero was not as drastic as we all remember from the original cut of the movie. It actually makes his evolution slightly less significant. It means that he was already a pretty good guy at the beginning, so he didn't have far in his personal journey to go.
You've never seen the original movies in their original cut, but those of us that grew up with those movies do have a strong opinion of the changes. For many of us, these small changes combine to result in a fairly different experience when watching the movies now. The main story is there, but the pace and overall experience is different than the movies that we fell in love with. U may say that different does not mean worse, but for many of us, in this case the "improvements" do make the experience worse. But you are right, complaining about it won't get us very much lol.
When the movies are put in the sources it means that did in fact use a DL-44. And George has always said that the ONLY thing that is canon is his movies an the clone wars series. So anything outside of those is non-canon. Now Wookiepedia uses several types of canon there is the EU and marketing canon and then there is G canon witch stands for George-canon. "There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don’t intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don’t get too involved in the parallel universe."
And I agree that you have a right to not like the changes.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Darth Solace on June 29, 2014, 11:18:52 AM
Lol. I'm not stupid. I am fully well aware of what it means. I was simply pointing out that you were mistaken when u said that the only canon sources for the article are 4 clone wars episodes. I was stating that there were in fact more canon sources than that. That is all.
I accept that wookieepedia is only giving canon information. Read their canon policy. They don't break it down further than that, and I think it would be ridiculous for us to, especially since the new canon material continues to be added to every time an approved author writes a story.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: bombarta on June 29, 2014, 12:25:20 PM
well me personally I don't hate lucas, I just think he was a bit foolish messing with something so good.
why did he really feel the need to add all the extra crap? ( it was public knowledge he used the original trilogy as a test bed for next gen special effects for his up coming prequels and no other reason, so thank the prequels for all the extra stuff added ) .
my favourite version of the films are the digitally remastered versions from the 90's thay have no added scenes but great picture quality.

my gripes:

ok the jabba scene in epIV that was a complete joke!

taking out the happy we have won ewok song from jedi and putting in some morbid dirge in its place was what the xxx!

then putting in whiney boy Anakin at the end, i mean we all knew he was making ep1 at that time so there was no need, plus he should of been old not young! and don't give me the old well he reverted to his old good image crap. lol some things should just be left alone.

pretty much every thing else I could live with apart from those big mistakes.

I just wish instead of the 4.3 original theatrical release version in the extras on the Blu-ray box set he gave the rematered version of them instead.
the world would be a happier place and we would not be having this discussion hahaha
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Darth Solace on June 29, 2014, 12:41:29 PM
Oh I most definatley agree. I don't hate him either, I just think maybe he's a bit of a perfectionist? Always trying to make some improvements to something when it was just about perfect the way it was. I love these movies, but these changes, for me anyway, are kinda distracting lol.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Onli-Won Kanomi on June 29, 2014, 05:53:03 PM
There is another thread here somewhere where "Wedge Antilles" points out in a very detailed fashion that the entire reason the SE exists was so George could mess over his ex-wife when they got divorced. I won't try to explain that in detail because Wedge does it so much better than I ever could but it is such a LOW base motive behind the SE that only proves the SE in UNWORTHY of any artistic respect; it is NOT any "perfectionism" on George's part to actually 'improve' the film, he was just trying to mess-over someone he now hates and was willing to mess with his own work to 'get' someone...that's not artistry that's cheap personal pettiness and SITHY malice.
Title: Re: This Guy Has The Right Idea
Post by: Darth Solace on June 29, 2014, 06:06:17 PM
Yeah, I was just offering a guess lol. But I can see that happening.