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Author Topic: Competition Velocities  (Read 511 times)

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Offline zinjedi

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Competition Velocities
« on: April 16, 2012, 06:56:34 AM »
Hi all, forgive me for the long post,

First off an introduction; My group is known as the ZinJedi, a duelling club in a little known country in South East Asia. We've been practicing for about a year+ with this new format we've called Lightsaber Velocities. And it's biggest aim is to practice the art of lightsaber dueling in a competition setting. We've taken a lot of theories from many online resources available to us and while we tried to stay very faithful to the facts given, we also made our own assumptions of what might constitute "The Jedi Way".

Also, I don't know if this might automatically get me burned at the stake for blasphemy here but, we don't use proper polycarbonate blades with led lighting or soundboards, but we use regular old... wooden dowels :(. The reasoning is that because we've been dueling for a while, and three broken blades later, we decided it would be cheaper to replace wood dowels rather than our polycarbonate ones. Eventually, we also found them to be lighter and easier to wield and we've decided to stick with it. We're also considering buying the Carbon Fiber blades from sabershop.com as we've decided that we want to fully commit to being a "Jedi dueling club" more than anything else. Also, in that respect we also practice "controlled" striking in order to not injure our training partners. But we do, for demos still use our polycarbonate blades made by the wonderful Kit Sabers from Singapore.

You can see a practice version of the duel in action with this youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veFPbGPDSc0. There are more but this seems to be the most popular one by two of the more experienced players recorded back in December. And if you'd like to learn more about the things we do and ramble on about, we do have a blog for keeping archives of our learnings at zinjedi.blogspot.com

So (forgive me for the long post, again >_<), without further ado, the rules of "Lightsaber Velocities" are as follows:



VELOCITY RULES AND GUIDELINES:

Official and Tournament Match Rules
(Standard Rules to be used during competition, unless stated otherwise)

1. DEFINITION AND PHILOSOPHY OF VELOCITIES
A Velocity match is a limited contact match between two opponents who attempt to score points within the designated body zone areas in a set limited timeframe. The opponent with the highest score wins.

A Jedi does not resort to aggressive, violent or dishonorable behavior. The Jedi does not intend to harm an opponent and will attempt to resolve a conflict in the most efficient way possible, without causing major harm. Therefore, the philosophy of a Velocity match is not to achieve victory over one's opponent at all costs, but to help the Jedi see their weaknesses and openings so that they may improve upon it.

With this philosophy in mind, Velocities are an exchange of lightsaber skill between two practitioners who aim to improve by addressing each other's weaknesses through limited contact sport. This is the spirit in which Velocities must be carried out.

2. DEFINITION OF LIMITED CONTACT SPORT
Limited-contact sports are sports in which the rules are specifically designed to prevent contact between players either intentionally or unintentionally. Although contact still occurs, they are controlled by the players in order to prevent injury. Strong penalties are often used to disallow substantial contact between players. These penalties, are often enforced by the judge when a player is intentionally causing harm and fails to take note of the judge's warning.

3. ELIGIBILITY
Competition or Tournament Velocities are limited to Jedi who have reached Level 4 of their training (Minimum of three months Shii Cho (Basic) Training) in ZinJedi Basics. This is to ensure that the Jedi have fully understood the philosophy of Velocities and the safety of both players during a match.

4. WEAPONS AND EQUIPMENT
The Velocities are performed using competition grade wooden sabers and the blade must be covered in brightly coloured fibre tape to prevent projectile splintering and breakage. All sabers must be validated by the judges before the match begins. The sabers must be checked for durability, splinters and any accessories which may be deemed dangerous during the match.

Carbon Fiber is also an approved alternative to traditional wood blades.

Safety:
Players are allowed to wear safety gloves and protective masks/ eyewear to prevent damage to the concerned area.


Saber Specifications:
4.1 Blade and Hilt Length

For Lightsabers:

Blade
The overall blade and hilt of the saber must not be less than 36 inches and must not exceed 42 inches.

The hilt itself, must not exceed 18 inches in length.

For Staff Sabers:

Blade
Both blades and hilt must not be less than 36 inches long and must not exceed 40 inches each.

Hilt
The hilt may not exceed 20 inches in length.

4.2 Use of other Blade types in competition
Double handed and Staff type practitioners are only eligible for competition once the Jedi have completed the Zin Jedi's Level 6 Trials.

5. SCORING: Body Zones/ Marks of Contact

Body Zones are the basic strike zones learned by all the ZinJedi. In competition, the marks of contact represent a vital hit and point for the player.

In order to score during a Velocity, A player must physically touch the bladed part of their saber via a striking motion to the designated body zones. If a strike is seen as too forceful by all three judges, then the point will be cancelled and will be given a warning to the offending player. A second offence will result in a point awarded to their opponent.

Although stabs and thrusts (Known as Shiak) are allowed, they carry no point value and should only be seen as a defensive measure. Aggressively using Shiak in which may result in physically harming a player will also result in a penalty.


5.1 The Scoring areas are:

i. Shoulder to elbow (Cho Sun)
ii. Elbow to wrist (Cho Mai)
iii. Waist at the abdominal area and above the hip. (Sai Tok)
iv. Thighs to above the knee caps (Cho Mok)

5.2 The areas in which may NOT be struck are (Forbidden areas):

(i)  Any part of the Head or neck

(ii)  Body area:
1. Chest
2. Ribcage area
3. Hips
4. Lower back (spinal, Kidney area)

(iii) Legs:
1. Groin area
2. Knee and below

Each score carries one (1) point.


5.3 Physical Contact
Players may not engage in the match using anything other than their sabers. A player may not physically grab, punch, kick or push their opponents with any part of their bodies. Violation of this rule will result in a warning, and a penalty/disqualification for any subsequent violations.

6. IN MATCH RULES:
During a Match, Players must always begin with a show of respect by observing traditional salutations.

It is a match between two players; a RED Player and BLUE Player

The match will run for three (3) minutes. The timekeeper will start and stop the clock at the command of the main Judge, or when a point is scored.

When a point is scored, players must return to their original position and will be given instruction by the judge to continue the match.

6.1 Rule of Engagment:
As a rule of engagement, during the start of each round, one player will be directed as the “Attacker” and will be given ten (10) seconds to initiate the first attack. Traditionally, this will be the “RED” player. Only after a point is scored (regardless of whichever player scores), will the designation of “Attacker” be changed to the "BLUE" player. This will occur after every point is scored until the timer runs out.

Note that with this rule, it does not imply that only the attacker is allowed to attack, but merely that the attacking player must always make the first step.
 
The judge may stop the match if there is a deadlock and the flow of the match has been stopped. From here players must break, and return to their original starting position. Again, roles will not change until a point is scored.

By default, the Judge is required to stop the clock and restart if the attacker does not make a move after ten (10) seconds. Three subsequent offences from the same player will lead to a penalty and point awarded to the opposing player.

A judge may also stop the match when both players encounter a draw or deadlock in which no points would be awarded

6.2 End of Match
The winner of the match is determined by the player with the most points scored.

After the match, both players must also show a sign of respect.

7. IN MATCH PENALTIES:
7.1 Penalties are awarded when:
1.       A player exits the competition area
2.       A player verbally or physically taunts or disrespects their opponent (taunts include deliberate celebration after a point scored or match won which is considered as disrespectful)
3.       A player shows dissent towards a judge's decision
4.       A player causes physical harm regardless whether it was intentional or non-intentional
5.       A player causes actual major physical harm regardless whether it was intentional or non-intentional (blood, broken bones)
6.       A player fails to comply with rules and formalities of Velocities

In the case of Scenario 1, the offending player will be issued a warning. A second offense will mean a point is to be awarded to their opponent

In the case of Scenario 2, the offending player will be issued a warning. A second offence will see them surrender one point from their score

In the case of Scenario 3, A point will be awarded to the opposing player

In the case of Scenario 4, the offending player will be issued a warning. A second offence will see them automatically disqualified and considered forfeit.

In the case of Scenario 5, the offending player will be disqualified and considered forfeit. The player will also be under strict review from the Judges and considered for suspension or ban.

In the case of Scenario 6, the offending player will not be penalised during the match, but will be put under review for disciplinary action by the ZinJedi.

8. TERMINATION:
When three (3) full penalties occur, the Judge will immediately forfeit the offending player from the match and award their opponents the match. It will officially be recorded by the ZinJedi as “10 – 0 (F)”
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 06:17:07 AM by zinjedi »

Offline Novastar

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Re: Competition Velocities
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2012, 03:20:51 PM »
Hello there... :)

Sounds like you guys have some good thinking involved regarding sparring & your goals!  That is awesome--keep it up.

Caine and I have also been putting together some solid thinking toward a sparring system and concepts that revolve around that as well.  We haven't released it yet, but we hope it to end up being a good "offshoot" that complements NCSCS and saber combat in general.

I can't say that I agree or condone 100% of what your initial post is stating, as... some areas are extremely vague or... a better way of saying it would be that the idea(s) are under-developed... but... don't take that in a "bad" way!!  :)  The entire point of building systems or guidelines are so that they adequately cover a giant portion of "things that could happen" during the activities the system specifies... while at the same time, not being overly-complicated, verbose or too controlling (in my opinion).  It takes time and experience to build such a system, that's sure.

Also, I definitely think input (especially from martial competitors) would help you to grow / alter / improve the guidelines you're already touching upon.  Additionally, input from others who do saber sparring would help as well!

Anyhow, welcome, and... glad you guys are so dedicated to saber sparring!

* NOVA & CAINE'S SABER COMBAT SYSTEM... is Finally HERE!!! --------> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7ZrmW-5bVs
* THE CRYSTAL FOCUS CD SOUND COMPENDIUMS 1-3... are HERE ---> http://thecuttingedge.s5.com/cd.html

* BALANCE OF POWER: Into The Lion's Den ------------------------------> EP I: http://youtube.com/watch?v=CIoKBNuJTAY

Offline zinjedi

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Re: Competition Velocities
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2012, 02:29:49 AM »

Hi thanks for the feedback!

I'd definitely like to have a look at your sparring system once it's ready. The original reason why me and my mates decided to make up the Velocities system was because we couldn't find a definitive set of standardised Dueling system, or at least rules of engagement. At least none that we completely agreed with too. But I'm hoping one day we could mold these rules into one standard so that everyone globally can apply it to their dueling and who knows.. an international Lightsaber Duel Tournament? A World (Earth) Jedi Tournament!? XD It would be awesome to see that one day; a gathering of Jedi for a show of Lightsaber skill.

I do apologise if our systems do ssem vague, but I guess it's my mistake for trying to introduce the system half baked. We have only been doing this for a year and while we try to ammend the rules as we test them, there's still a lot of work and scenarios, situations that we haven't addressed, but from time to time we sit down,  take a long hard look at the rules and keep adding/amending  them until the system looks a little bit more better, while trying as you said, not to be overly complicated and controlling.

Fun and spirited play is always an important factor when considering the rules, and we try our best not to get anyone injured, in which thankfully, no one's been to the emergency room yet!

If you have any suggestions or concerns about our rules, I'd like to hear them out since I'm sure we can put some heads together to make a more unified system we can use!

Offline Alex Gordon

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Re: Competition Velocities
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2012, 04:48:04 AM »
The blade lengths are way too long.  not many people would want a blade 36" long unless they were 6' tall.  especially for a staff.  i had a 36" blade and had to cut it because it was too long.  i'm 5' 11"





Offline zinjedi

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Re: Competition Velocities
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2012, 06:19:41 AM »
Ah! it's a mistype! Sorry bout that.

Meant to write overall blade and hilt length at minimum 36 inches, but the hilt must not exceed 18 inches of that overall saber length. Re-edited the post to correct it.

Thanks for the point out :D

Offline Alex Gordon

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Re: Competition Velocities
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 06:33:00 AM »
Ah, sort of thought that in the back of my mind but i thought that way it was too short of a limit.  With a 2" blade depth (about the most you will find) that gives you a 10" hilt with a 34" blade and as the hilt size increases, the blade length decreases.  My 12" hilt would be limited to a 32" (30" visible) blade.

I do like the fact that you are putting a limit on it, but i still think that spot needs some tweaking. 


Most common hilt length here is ~12" give or take 1/2" but most common blade length is around 34" give or take (some people do prefer 36" but fromour discussions, most are around 32-24") which would far exceed the restrictions in place. 


Just my.02.  Pretty cool and intricate rules though. 





Offline Caine

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Re: Competition Velocities
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2012, 10:59:57 AM »
Alex, you simply cannot step in and say that blade length for this person or that person is wrong.

You say you are 5'11" and use a 34" blade and that a 36" was too long. I am 5'5" and also use a 34" blade.

 ::)

See? To each their own.

If these people are dueling, than reach is paramount. They are not spinning and doing tricks, where a shorter blade would be best. Their focus is saber sparring, and if your partner has a longer blade than they are going to have the advantage, even if one is faster.

Remember, you can't generalize things like this because there is such a broad range of saberplayers out there. Trust me...I know what I am talking about.

@zinjedi, I believe that mine and Nova's NCSCS system would help you and your group greatly because it's a system that can help set things in place for you. Good luck with your group and saberplay safely.  :)

« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 01:40:18 PM by Caine »

Offline Alex Gordon

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Re: Competition Velocities
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2012, 11:08:28 AM »
I didn't use an absolute caine, but when i first posted and said 36" was too long i meant as a minimum blade length.  My whole point was that a blade only length of 36"-42" was too long of a minimum and now i think it is too short of a maximum. 

Basically, i was trying to say exactly what you just did.  People like different length blades and the way it was before they were not allowed less than 36" amd now they aren't allowed more than 34" with a 2" depth and a 10" hilt. 





Offline Caine

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Re: Competition Velocities
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2012, 11:13:06 AM »
I didn't use an absolute caine, but when i first posted and said 36" was too long i meant as a minimum blade length.  My whole point was that a blade only length of 36"-42" was too long of a minimum and now i think it is too short of a maximum. 

Basically, i was trying to say exactly what you just did.  People like different length blades and the way it was before they were not allowed less than 36" amd now they aren't allowed more than 34" with a 2" depth and a 10" hilt. 

Ahhh, OK. It sounded like the exact opposite, LOL.  :D

Offline Alex Gordon

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Re: Competition Velocities
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2012, 11:18:35 AM »
I didn't use an absolute caine, but when i first posted and said 36" was too long i meant as a minimum blade length.  My whole point was that a blade only length of 36"-42" was too long of a minimum and now i think it is too short of a maximum. 

Basically, i was trying to say exactly what you just did.  People like different length blades and the way it was before they were not allowed less than 36" amd now they aren't allowed more than 34" with a 2" depth and a 10" hilt. 

Ahhh, OK. It sounded like the exact opposite, LOL.  :D

Nah, i know people like all different sizes but i can understand why there would be a limit on how long they could be so that no one had an advantage with a really long blade. 





Offline zinjedi

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Re: Competition Velocities
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2012, 08:01:03 PM »
@Alex Gordon
Thanks for the input, really. Right now we have those regulations in place but we will adjust the rules since there's a lot of things we haven't considered yet. Especially in the case of the hilt length, there have been instances where players attempt a Cho Mai (a cut to the wrist) and by "sheer luck" or "on purpose", they would block that attack with their hilt. And since technically it would be a block, having longer hilt types would in fact add a small benefit to the player.

And as for blade length, we did put up restrictions partly for aesthetic reasons; we don't want it too short or too long just so that it "qualifies the bare minimum appearance of a lightsaber", as one of my mates put it. Personally I don't see a problem with it being a few inches longer or shorter. Knowing a few things about swordplay or martial arts in general, i should know the pros and cons of having a shorter or longer blade than your opponent. And even though we don't have a staff saber or double saber wielder yet, i'd imagine that should have pros and cons too. ;)

@Caine
thanks, i'm looking forward to having a look at it once it's ready. We're still refining ours slowly, but as is, we've managed to make it work. Recently we've added a 3-judge-with-flag system too. It's based on the Kendo Judging system but with a red and blue flag. And we're working on describing the definition of what makes a "Valid Point", since some of our players seem to resort to, and get away, with extremely awkward looking and light taps to score a point.

So yeah, actually having said that, I am looking to lean our Velocity system towards the Kenjutsu/Kendo style of sparring rather than the "Flailing sponge sword" method of the video below... not that I'm against it (it does look fun >.>), but it doesn't look graceful like a Jedi should be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB2fEPDAaFw&feature=related

Offline Novastar

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Re: Competition Velocities
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2012, 09:24:48 PM »

Hi thanks for the feedback!

I'd definitely like to have a look at your sparring system once it's ready. The original reason why me and my mates decided to make up the Velocities system was because we couldn't find a definitive set of standardised Dueling system, or at least rules of engagement. At least none that we completely agreed with too. But I'm hoping one day we could mold these rules into one standard so that everyone globally can apply it to their dueling and who knows.. an international Lightsaber Duel Tournament? A World (Earth) Jedi Tournament!? XD It would be awesome to see that one day; a gathering of Jedi for a show of Lightsaber skill.

I completely understand.  It's precisely why I'd been thinking of a good system to design as well.  And yup... it'll be available in due time on SaberCombat.com.  :)

That said... in my opinion:

* It's unlikely anyone will want to use "one way" -- especially initially
* There is nothing wrong with having many ways to do things (in this case, sparring and so forth)
* A national or worldwide setup seems pretty far off until many of the groups UNITE or at least... start working together

On that last note... in addition to people dumping their egos in order to unite & work together (VERY tough to see happening in the LED saber community, sadly), it would require a TON of logistics.  You know... getting everyone in one place, having systems that at least *MOST* people can adhere to, and... just travel expenses alone.

But I definitely appreciate that type of thinking!  It's definitely something possible for the future.

I do apologise if our systems do ssem vague, but I guess it's my mistake for trying to introduce the system half baked. We have only been doing this for a year and while we try to ammend the rules as we test them, there's still a lot of work and scenarios, situations that we haven't addressed, but from time to time we sit down,  take a long hard look at the rules and keep adding/amending  them until the system looks a little bit more better, while trying as you said, not to be overly complicated and controlling.
Don't be sorry.  Theories and ideas always "get better" when tested in the real world.  Under "weird" circumstances, etc.  This is another reason why I have a lot of things to say about sparring... since I've pretty much been doing real-time sparring (saber fencing) for 12+ years.  And (duh), additionally, the martial arts experience I have helps as well.

Ultimately, when people see what Caine & I have planned for SaberCombat.com... they will understand.  They'll probably be a bit surprised too.

Fun and spirited play is always an important factor when considering the rules, and we try our best not to get anyone injured, in which thankfully, no one's been to the emergency room yet!

If you have any suggestions or concerns about our rules, I'd like to hear them out since I'm sure we can put some heads together to make a more unified system we can use!
Caine and I always agree: safety is a HUGE concern (especially when people aren't professionals, or when people do not sign waivers / have hardcore health insurance).

As for other suggestions, I'd simply say that the best thing is to keep working on things and go from there.  Ask martial artists... ask fencers... ask Kendo folks... and study online sword work if ya like too!
* NOVA & CAINE'S SABER COMBAT SYSTEM... is Finally HERE!!! --------> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7ZrmW-5bVs
* THE CRYSTAL FOCUS CD SOUND COMPENDIUMS 1-3... are HERE ---> http://thecuttingedge.s5.com/cd.html

* BALANCE OF POWER: Into The Lion's Den ------------------------------> EP I: http://youtube.com/watch?v=CIoKBNuJTAY

Offline KIT FISTO

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Re: Competition Velocities
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2012, 11:58:55 AM »
@AG:  Miyamoto Musashi.   ;)

Sounds cool what you have going on!  Wish my area wasn't so un-starwarsy.


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