A note TO and ABOUT Crystal Focus "scalpers"

[ASAJJ VENTRESS]

Xanthus, I'm trying to figure out why you would think we would edit or delete your post.  Has anyone ever censored your posts in the past? Have any of your posts mysteriously disappeared in any other thread?  And for that matter, why do you think we're talking about you?  Unless you are behind every single one of the CF sales with a high reserve/starting price?  To be honest, your post came out of left field to me.  It was established PAGES ago that anyone selling anything to cover medical and other needed expenses were not scalpers. Since you already stated that you needed to pay medical bills, going along that logic, this thread has nothing to do with you.

For small communities, communication is vital, so I take any accusation or believe of censorship very seriously.  Why do you think we would edit or delete your post

(And for the record, your friendship with Do Clo is not a secret considering the many pictures of the two you posted in the last couple of months.)

[Forgetful Jedi Knight]

Xanthus,

No one here would modify/delete your post. Most can't (even IF they wanted to) and those who probably could wouldn't dream of it unless you crossed the "language line". 

Barriss is also correct in another point, early on it was established that selling due to a personal financial crisis, isn't the same thing as scalping (or outright price gauging).

Luminara is also correct that perception is basically reality, and most have strong feeling (on both sides of the argument). Originally, I completely agreed with Novastar, until it came out that one of the people did it due to a "medical/financial hardship". Once I read that, my stance softened. 

[Novastar]

Exactly, Jamo... DarthSteve... what you are both talking about = LEGIT (in my opinion).

Again, I want to emphasize the following things, and then get back to work on Compendium #3:

* The situation is indeed not "black & white".  Things worth discussing rarely are.

* CF is not "rare".  At least... not in terms of how many are out there.  Sure, sure... it's a "rare gem" of a great piece of electronics... but... not rare as in the Mona Lisa or ...uh... Excalibur or something.

That other thread I opened sort of "verifies" this... from a certain point-of-view... LOL...
http://www.fx-sabers.com/forum/index.php?topic=26080.0

...but no, seriously, it at least chronicles the fairly consistent release of things like CFv2, CFv3, CFv4 over the past few years.  And it also explains the general "gap" because of CFv5... which was a complete "re-do" architecturally.  CFv5 is pretty much a "different species"--in many ways--vs. all the previous versions.  Although at FACE VALUE, that seems ridiculous or bombastic. 

* AGAIN again again... this thread was a general "open people's eyes + get thoughts" on "CF Scalpers".  The subject has been maintained from day one, post #1.  For those who want to "bend this" into me somehow saying that anyone selling CF at any time is magically evil... that's your OWN warped interpretation.  Good luck with that.

* CF (FROM THE PLECTERLABS WEBSITE) has never been over-priced.  I can say that with great authority too, as Erv and have worked closely enough over the years for me to have a general idea on the cost of parts on the board + figuring in for labor & the innovation that is the very firmware itself.

If you want to, ~YOU~ may:
1. study the board with a magnifying glass
2. make yourself a parts list
3. guess, estimate or price quote "out there in the world" what each part is
4. make a guess as to what it would be to buy 100s of each of those parts (bulk order for a run of ~100 or whatever)
5. get an idea of what it means to do or "have others make/do" a PCB with multi-layers
6. get an idea of what it means to LAY OUT THE TRACES of your own PCB
7. while you're here... try to imagine ALL THE WORK that has gone into the underlying firmware (some of which is PRETTY complex, like the light-driving)... from v1.x to v.4x to the newly designed v5
8. get an idea of organization/calibration/assembly/soldering of all those bulk parts you ordered or priced
9. check... test... verify... test, etc. etc.
10. calculate a bit for your time & labor... since you'll be doing all of these boards YOURSELF.
11.  By the way... could ~YOU~ even solder/construct a CF board even if you HAD the components?  I'm going to tell you something, and you should not take it at face value: ABOUT 1% of the LED SABER COMMUNITY COULD DO IT THEMSELVES.  If that.  And I'm just talking about if the "keys were handed to you" (as in you just have to solder parts).  And it would take you maybe 5x to 10x as long... ... ... per board.  Good luck with that.

...if you've done all that, and you come up with that "CF should be like $50", well I'm sorry, we owe the LED saber community an apology...

...but I'm willing to bet my left arm and right nostril that... NO... you COULDN'T build CF and sell it for $50.  Without being a martyr.  Without going broke.  Without being a silly fool.

All that being said... it comes back to why CF scalping is just plain wrong.  Like the man said: "Just because you CAN... doesn't mean you SHOULD."  I may as well have sold tickets for Balance of Power shows.  I probably COULD have gotten away with asking for money.  But I didn't.  There is a barely hidden message here.

[baphomet68]

Think its wrong to scalp a cf? welcome to the angry world of the Anarchist, my friends. Those with cash resources in excess of their immediate needs have always used their advantage to extort the labor of the general population. And generally, the only alternative to having your labor (or cash, labor-in-transit) extorted, is to line up in the ranks of those doing the extorting.
     While the CF scalping issue may be particularly egregious, it is no different in type from chevrolet, 3m, honeywell, or haliburton; men extorting the labor of other men. Is it wrong? It certainly is FOR ME. I suspect that it is fine for most people, though. Its just an exaggerated example of the "law" of supply and demand; ebay has just lowered the bar, making it easier for the general public to get in on the scam.

[Alex Gordon]

This discussion is perfect for how sick the CF scalpers make me feel.  I saw a CF go for $600 on ebay two nights ago and it made me sick.  The people that wait for the release of CF, buy not just one, but 3... and then SELL THEM ON EBAY FOR $600 EACH MAKE ME AND HOPEFULLY ALL OF THE PEOPLE WITH MORALS IN THIS COMMUNITY SICK!!!! you are taking away from the people who are actually going to use the boards for your own gain... you are obviously sith in nature and I don't just mean by the color of your lightsaber.
   Do us all a favor and leave.  None of us want you around to snatch up the boards that could have been ours.

[vulcan fox]

alot of very strong feelings out there on this subject, but i agree that scalping can, could hurt this hobby if we let it... i believe 99% of saber enthusiasts have a real love for what they create ,scalpers love only the money..

[s Rank]

I know which one you're talking about, I was actually bidding on it, contemplating on getting it, since it was a V4.0 for 530$. I'm eagerly awaiting the restock of V5s by Erv, but am itching to secure a CF of some kind.

There's another CFV4.0 on eBay, which at the moment is going for near 400$.

[Alex Gordon]

It isn't the people thatbuy them that make me mad (though if no one did there would be no problem) it's the people that sel them

[Forgetful Jedi Knight]

Guys,

As we have gone over in this thread many times, there are multiple reasons fro people selling their CF boards.  Some do it to make a profit - which most of us feel is wrong, and some people sell them because of financial circumstances - which is very unfortunate, but we can all understand that. If they started the bidding at roughly what the board was worth (cost + shipping = roughly $180.00), without a reserve and people then bid it up to an astronomical amount, the seller acted ethically in my opinion (which I also believe is shared by many who have been involved in this debate). The fact that CF's are so coveted and in short supply is the main reason why these boards are so valuable.

[Alex Gordon]

And if they start it at around $180 i'm fine with that.  However, I haven't seen one CF auction start below $350.  I'm not saying that there aren't ways to sell CF without being a scalper, I'm saying that most people who sell it don't do it the right way

[Forgetful Jedi Knight]

Unfortunately, I personally do not go on eBay very often, and I've only seen two auctions personally, and when I did see them, they had several bids on them and I don't know where they started at, so I am basing my opinions on what I have read here (by people I personally trust) on the forums and the actual dollar amounts that I had seen on eBay. 

[MH]

I may have one or two to sell if the price is right
They are brand  new.

You mean the right price would be retail right?  I would not scalp the boards if I were you as you just might lose the option to get them ever again.

[SgtBatten]

I agree with your intent MH and please don't take this the wrong way but a blanket ban seems unreasonable.

If I own something it then realistically I should be able to ask whatever I feel like.
Not talking any one thing specifically. Just in general.
Nobody is forcing anyone's hand. Taking advantage yes perhaps so. But that's life.

I know I'll probably be frowned upon for saying it but it is IMHO 

[DarthLwin]

Actually I kinda agree with SgtBatten. No offence meant MH, but a ban like that doesn't seem fair to me.

Its like saying saber smiths can only sell sabers for the sum of the total cost of parts. Granted they do a lot of work, and can thus ask for more of a profit. However, there is a fair amount of effort that the owner of the CF can be rewarded for, such as the time spent lurking on the forum until the CF board was released, postage to the current owner and even the money he put in as an "investment".

Kinda like property investment. No one actually creates the land, and most people don't build the actual houses(not where I'm from anyways), but people still earn from buying and selling at the right time.

Again, this is just my opinion, and I don't mean to offend anyone.

[C-3P0]

I think a different way to look at this is out of respect of Erv, the hard worker who provides all these boards to the community. He could just as easily jack the price up due to availability...but he doesn't.

Just my thoughts.